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Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.


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Old 18th Apr 2010, 10:50   #81 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I would much rather pay twice the price for an Integrated course if it gave me a better chance of getting a job at the end of it.
Striking as this sort of opinion happens to pop up all the time and much more.
Then some criticise WWW's blunt choice of vocab and calling someone 'zombie army' and headless lemmings.

'Boy', did you check current job prospects and for next few years to come, or are you just plain brainwashed by one of the 'pilot seminars'?

Yes, you get what you pay for. Whether it's over the odds, who cares, right?
Someone has to keep all the integrated schools' staff in job, including instructors.

How much of that 'I'd rather spend double' money for 'zero to fATPL' training have you actually earned yourself? Did you read updated information on huge unsecured loans? None now, really. Are your daddies stupid enough to secure their house against secured one??

Last edited by MartinCh; 18th Apr 2010 at 19:13.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 18:56   #82 (permalink)
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Not sure I ever coined the phrase 'headless lemmings' but I'm noting it down for future use..


In the boom times an Integrated course can be a worthwhile spend. We're in a big bad-ass bust right now and for the foreseeable future. Despite this, and proving the total pissing-in-the-wind nature of this forum the Integrated schools are full, are not cutting prices and have a half decent waiting list. All of them.

The swimming pool is full of slurry but still they're eagerly pulling on their trunks and queuing to climb the diving board ladder...

It beats me.


WWW
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 19:33   #83 (permalink)
 
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Ah, I was once a starry eyed wannabe (still a wannabe, just minus the stars) and was debating the cost/chance of employment between Int and Mod, I chose MOD, earn while you learn being the reason. I was an early supporter of the WWW theory and yet still I thought that I'd beat the slump and come up trumps and be sat in the 75 taking off from LBIA. Then XL went bump and being close friends with many of the unfortunates forced me to have a strong sniff of the morning brew.
I am 32 this year and will more than likely be closer to 35 before things are anywhere near being good for pilot recruitment, I'll never be able to earn as a pilot what I earn as an IT engineer and so I find myself asking wether its worth the leap at all. As of the end of last year I put everything on hold and it remains so.
Anyway, thread creep.

In my oppinion its all about what your after. Right now it makes little difference to your prospects of employment either way so you have to take other factors in to consideration. Money is no object to some, budgets are the defining factor to others, some people lack the motivation to self structure their training or lack the discipline to distance learn, Some may like the idea of hour building while travelling, some may want/need to remain close to home for work/family.

There are many champions of both approaches but the reality is that you have to take a long look at yourself, take all factors in to consideration (discipline, motivation, budget, circumstances) and make the decision as only YOU can. And if your not able to then perhaps it was never meant to be in the first place as even me at lowly PPL can tell you that decision making is perhaps one of the greatest qualities you'll need as a pilot.

Ho Hum.

P.s Cheers WWW and all the others that warned us of the storm on the horizon, shame your not as up on volcanology, could've made a mint at the bookies.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 19:53   #84 (permalink)
 
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Wen can we expect to see everything turning, anyway? When are the airlines gonna start hiiring again like they did before the downturn? 2 years, 3? 4? Because this is is important to know when you make the Integrated vs Modular decision.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:15   #85 (permalink)

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If we knew that then we'd make a killing on recruitment etc.

There has been talk of the airlines beginning to recruit experienced crews in 2011. However, as for the overall "boom times" for all? Our company is considering 2013 as the earliest time.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:16   #86 (permalink)
 
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Well isn't that the million dollar question. Icelandic ash can't be helping.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:19   #87 (permalink)
 
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So one should still go modular if starting during autumn, 2011?
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:34   #88 (permalink)
 
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fabbe you aint getting recruited no how mod or int
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 15:09   #89 (permalink)
 
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Maybe schools like EFT in Florida is the way to go nowdays. They are fairly cheap and they give you the chance to work as an instructor so when you leave them, you have around 1500 hours. That should put you in a better position to apply for a job, than the 250hr guys.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 17:18   #90 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for the words of wisdom. Apologies if I offended anyone by calling you 'Boys' just a term I use to try and make myself feel younger! Nearing 25 now and the grey hairs may just be starting to get to me.

It would really help us wannabes if there were some hard facts about the pilot job market - for example....
  • How many unemployed pilots (ratings current etc and ready to fly) are there in the uk at present?

    How many retirements will there be over the next few years?

    How many student pilots are due to graduate over the next few years?

    What percentage of new FO jobs have been given to MOD students vs INT students? Actual numbers would help here too.
Can anyone help with this info as it would help to make an informed decision.

To answer Martinch's question regarding my statement of paying double etc. I have worked to save approx 30% of the cost of an integrated course and will use this saving as a contingency to suppliment my repayments after I have completed the course. Hopefully with the investments I have made with some of this saving I should have a few years of repayments under my belt so I don't need to panic if I dont find a job straight away. I would'nt say my father is stupid (you may do?) but yes the aim is to take out a securred loan.

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!
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Old 20th Apr 2010, 15:02   #91 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!
And where do they base this from? The so called retirement bubble that has been thrown about for the last 10 years or so?
Where is the growth in UK going to come from? certainly not Ryan and easy, I believe they have both made their future plans known, and after the current deliveries have been made thats it. I think the current boom will never be repeated, perhaps in the sand pit or far east, but certainly not in UK.
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Old 20th Apr 2010, 17:28   #92 (permalink)
 
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Where to start! If someone asked me on my opinion this is it. Modular.

Pre 2007 I would have said integrated. However, things have changed. I was very close to going integrated but chose modular and it has been the best decision I ever made. I trained at the top schools at some point and came out spending £40k for 270 hours.
After finishing recently I now have the same piece of paper as someone on an integrated course but half the debt and not crippled by the interest payments.

The good thing about the integrated course is that if there are jobs then you are going to be fine, but now, very few jobs, you join everybody else in the pool and fight it out. I suspect that this will be the case for the sometime.

If you can genuinely afford £115k (including a type rating), and I mean GENUINELY (not just being accepted for a loan) go integrated. If not modular is the route to go by some distance regarding price.

(Sorry if the answer is slightly disjointed it is very difficult to summarise this subject I could write pages and pages on the modular integrated issue pro and con for either).
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Old 21st Apr 2010, 12:27   #93 (permalink)
 
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TL 638,

Whilst your efforts to appraise the industry are applauded you need to take into account your circumtances/goals and the prospects of the industry...which at the moment are quite bleak. I would resist the temption to over analyse and to make a decision based on risk v return at this moment in time.

If you want hard facts such as those you've asked for, which may require investment of research (afterall aviation is an industry), then perhaps your best bet is to speak with either the CAA, IPA, BALPA or a leading industry player such as BA (possibly all!) who may have conducted an in-depth study on pilot recruitment and employment.

However, if you want to enter the industry, start by investing your time now by doing PPL/NPPL/Glider flying and that way you'll at least get some sort of flying experience and will allow you to see a little bit of the industry from within. As things start to improve your investment of time will start to pay off and you can then make a more informed and balanced decision on which route to take.
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Old 26th Apr 2010, 12:06   #94 (permalink)

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If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!
Complete and utter rubbish I'm afraid. The flight training industry has been selling the prospect of a 'pilot shortage' for as long as they've been training pilots. I started to seriously consider a flying career back in the late 1990s, and the schools were saying exactly the same thing then. The fact that wannabes want to hear it doesn't make it true. To add to the reality check, count the number of FTO adverts in the back of any flying magazine, then consider the advertising revenue they bring in, then consider whether the magazine might just have a vested interest in perpetuating this myth. When faced with an industry that knows you are itching to part with £60k+, and would love to get their hands on your money, it pays to treat their claims with extreme cynicism.

To get definitive answers to your other questions would require lots of data from the CAA and individual airlines - which you'll never get - but I'll try and give you my thoughts, from the perspective of a UK airline pilot who is not trying to sell you anything:

Quote:
How many unemployed pilots (ratings current etc and ready to fly) are there in the uk at present?
Very difficult to say with any precision, but probably somewhere between the high hundreds and a couple of thousand. In any case, the exact number is pretty academic – what matters is that there are lots of people chasing their first break in a market where first jobs are practically non-existant.

Quote:
How many retirements will there be over the next few years?
Fewer than in the last few years. BA recently raised their retirement age from 55 to 60, and as the UK's single biggest employer of pilots, that on its own will have an effect. Long term, retirement age is only likely to increase further. Again, it's fairly academic, because you will always have more wannabes trying to enter the market than people retiring from it. As an example, my airline employs around 700 pilots, and I can think of 4 or 5 who have retired in the last few months. If we were accepting CVs, I can guarantee you we would get more that that number every day.

Quote:
How many student pilots are due to graduate over the next few years?
Thousands. Far more than there will ever be jobs for. If you wanted to be really nerdy, you could look up how many light twins each of the commercial schools has, then, assuming that each aircraft operates say four student sorties per day, and each of those students takes around a month to complete the flying part of their IR, you could calculate a figure. It won't be pretty.

Quote:
What percentage of new FO jobs have been given to MOD students vs INT students? Actual numbers would help here too.
As I've said, you're not going to get this, but here's a ballpark view of the UK's four biggest employers of pilots. BA, when they recruit low hours pilots, will only take integrated candidates, and even then it's only a handful every month (note that having Oxford on your CV is not a ticket into BA). Ryanair couldn't give a toss whether you were integrated or modular, as long as you can pass (and pay for) their type rating course. Easyjet have traditionally sourced their low-houred pilots from CTC, which is actually a modular course, albeit run on a full-time (aka integrated) basis. Given their new found enthusiasm for pay to fly, however, I wouldn't get too excited about your prospects with them. Flybe don't mind whether you're integrated or modular, and if my experience is anything to go by, the mix is roughly 50/50. That's the big four, who between them account for the great majority of low-houred airline opportunities. Personally, I don't think it makes a convincing case for integrated, but if you think it's worth spending double for a better chance of a job, then fill your boots.

As Pilot Positive says, all the analysis and number crunching is a little academic right now. There are virtually no jobs out there irrespective of your choice of school or training route, and that situation is unlikely to improve for at least the next couple of years. If you are passionate about flying (and why else would you want to be an airline pilot?) then get down to your local flying club and do some PPL training. It's all hours in the logbook, and at least you can be doing something constructive while waiting for the market to improve.
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Old 26th Apr 2010, 12:28   #95 (permalink)
 
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Hi G SXTY,

Thanks for posting such an in depth reply. Just one query, from where did the information regarding BA only recruiting integrated students come from? I've heard it many times, but when I went up onto the flight deck of a BA flight last summer (pre take off) to chat with the pilots, neither thought it was correct... The FO had joined direct from CTC as a 200hr guy, which as you say is effectively a modular course.

Last edited by Hezza; 17th Aug 2010 at 22:05.
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Old 26th Apr 2010, 23:15   #96 (permalink)

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I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical. In the olden days before JAA, when the choice was CAP509 (what is now integrated) or the self-improver (modular) route, BA allegedly took on a few low-houred self-improvers, and weren't particularly impressed. Since then, all recruitment of inexperienced pilots has been via the 'approved' / CAP509 / integrated route. Presumably a candidate from CTC would be acceptable as they have passed an initial selection and would come with a verifiable training history (the CTC course being integrated in all but name).

Note that once you have enough commercial experience to apply to BA as a direct entry (experienced) pilot, they are as disinterested as everyone else as to how and where you got your licence.
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Old 27th Apr 2010, 05:02   #97 (permalink)

 
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BA? this company is a joke and you should nt join a school who send pilots to BA.
when you look at the strikes(pretty much every month now), the management who don't care except how much is on their fat bank account, I can not trust who is in charge of these planes.it' s all corrupt from the top to the the bottom!.

BA is already dead, in a few months they will close their doors.
I think it' s going to be the end for Oxford Aviation and the end of many integrated schools

who cares?, some other airlines will take the lines, and student will go somewhere else.
plenty of good schools where you save lot of bucks!.
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Old 27th Apr 2010, 09:31   #98 (permalink)
 
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Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Let´s face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.
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Old 27th Apr 2010, 11:47   #99 (permalink)


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Pilot training in Australia

Im looking at doing my CPL in Oz next year. Im 29 and looking for the best, most cost effective way of obtaining my cpl, with a frozen Atpl, can anyone give me some guidance on this? Obviously time frame is a factor due to my age, however still want to get the best training possible. Prices seem to fluctuate quite dramatically it seems, Modular or intergrated??? whats the difference from those of you who have taken the different paths. Thanks in advance
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Old 27th Apr 2010, 12:27   #100 (permalink)
 
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Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.
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