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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

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Modular V Integrated (Merged) - Look here before starting a new thread!

Old 14th Aug 2013, 03:21
  #541 (permalink)  
 
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Smart guy,

"If my parents are willing to pay Intergrated why should consider modular"

Sorry pal if you ever get to an interview for a cadetship with pilots in the room they will dismiss you rather quick in my opinion. Very immature, You should consider the costs it's not cheap and putting your parents at such a big risk and should not be taken lightly if they're millionaires and can throw money around go Intergrated at CTC get few hundred hours on an A320 then try find a job "At an airline who likes hiring intergrated students" Guess what they're not hiring Plus how many people have gone through CTC have type rating with few hundred flexi hours too, Guess what then you go for a job they're going for the same one! So all in all the experience you gain is at value but consider who you're going up against guys who are typed with more hours etc.

As for Aer lingus hiring guys from FTO without advertising is talk.
Friend of mine modular student had an interview last time round missed the interview due to work FR who he was only working for a few weeks! (EI changed the interview day and couldn't get the day off..) I've met and talked too few pilots who went modular, EI take modular few from PTC when it was around most them had experience else where like majority of airlines look for an ATPL holder with Mutli crew experience.

Ryanair will always look for external candidates, A story on the FTE merged "Friend of mine graduated, Had an assessment with FR he failed the assessment has no current job and has a loan of 1k a month to pay back" don't be fooled by FTOs if you think you've a better chance of getting a job intergrated your greatly mistaken, Everyone gets THE SAME LICENCES just some people pay way over the odds for them..
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 08:01
  #542 (permalink)  
 
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"If my parents are willing to pay Intergrated why should consider modular"
To be fair as much as smartguy has wound people up the wrong way on this thread that is a completely legitimate question. If you or your parents genuinely have the money and you have the time then integrated probably is the way to go...

Ryanair will always look for external candidates, A story on the FTE merged "Friend of mine graduated, Had an assessment with FR he failed the assessment has no current job and has a loan of 1k a month to pay back" don't be fooled by FTOs if you think you've a better chance of getting a job intergrated your greatly mistaken, Everyone gets THE SAME LICENCES just some people pay way over the odds for them..
But will Ryanair always look for external candidates? CAE have a vested interest in getting their graduates jobs...

As I said before I have nothing to base this on but my own intuition but now that CAE own OAA I can only see that relationship getting stronger. Of course it does not guarantee anyone graduating from OAA a job with Ryanair but it seems pretty obvious to me that people coming from OAA have a significant advantage over external candidates because CAE know what Ryanair like, the OAA course includes 40hrs in the 737 sim and the careers department have an established connection to the process.

As for everyone getting the same licences well that is of course true but what you are paying for at OAA/CTC is not to get a different licence but all the shiny facilities like the full motion sims, the airline connections and of course the name...value that as you will...

Of course there will always be those unfortunate integrated grads who fail to get anything and then have to face the pain of their training loan.

In essence this is how I see it...

This whole flight training thing is a bit like gambling; you pay more to CTC for the likelihood of winning more in a faster period of time...in all likelihood you will get lucky but there is always a chance you will fail big time. Fail at the final stage or get a six month contract and then nothing and you are back to square one and the loan comes to bite you in the bottom.

If you go modular you might not have to borrow, you have gambled less but to be honest the chances of quick success are lower. You can wait though, and maybe work at other things in the mean time. You might be waiting a long time because opportunities for 250hrs pilots with no MPA time are few and far between. You might get lucky with Aer Lingus or DHL but who knows, you could instruct in Scotland for a while and end up at Loganair for example or you might end up finding IR renewals too expensive and giving up...

Question is smartguy how lucky are you feeling...?
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 10:52
  #543 (permalink)  
 
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Whichever training route you choose it's all a bit of a lucky dip for anyone not having the luxury of joining an airline sponsorship scheme.

I accompanied my son on visit to CTC on one of their open days in Southampton and we both left there feeling highly sceptical about their work placement ideas. He then visited FTE in Jerez and this resulted in a placement offer. His FTE contract arrived extremely late (just before his start date in fact) but it didn't match what he had been told at interview so on my advice he ditched that idea too.

He went on to complete his training via the modular route and he tells me he is really glad he did it that way. He felt in control of his spend, he surprised himself with his ability to self study and he organised his own training program, which gave him a huge sense of personal satisfaction. Overall he feels he has learnt far more about the industry by doing it the modular way.

Join a bona-fide airline sponsorship scheme if you're able would be my humble advice. Failing that there seems to be no benefit in paying all that extra money to do an integrated course on a half promise of a job at the end of it. I do not accept the assertion that prospective employers discriminate against modular graduates and that is based on the fact that I fly with many good co-pilots from both training backgrounds - the split seems to be about even I'd say!
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 11:20
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I do not accept the assertion that prospective employers discriminate against modular graduates and that is based on the fact that I fly with many good co-pilots from both training backgrounds - the split seems to be about even I'd say!
It obviously varies from airline to airline. It sounds like DHL still have an open and fair recruitment policy in which both are equally likely to succeed in. It is a shame though airlines like easyJet don't see it that way...

Which school did your son do his training at in the end?
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 11:42
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Airways Flight Training at Exeter for the CPL/ME/IR and Bournemouth for the MCC, its important to pick an aircraft with an EFIS layout if you can, he chose the 747-400 for his.

Last edited by sapco2; 14th Aug 2013 at 11:44.
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 11:50
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If you or your parents genuinely have the money and you have the time then integrated probably is the way to go...
I don't have a problem with that either, and for some who can't self study or aren't mature enough to live and organise themselves through training it may also be the only way they can train successfully.

Its the people who put the entire family's capital on the line which unless they are on a tagged scheme is both worrying and extremely risky.
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 12:04
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I have heard very good things about Airways, definitely in the top modular schools.

Just something else to add to this debate as I said in the my first post a few pages back - on a more practical note when doing my research the modular schools were often a lot easier to approach, you can usually just schedule an informal meeting with the flight school manager or something quite easily. Most will have a rough idea of where their last ten or so graduates have ended up and how successful they have been, this at least gives a sense of how people are getting on. CTC on the other hand were awful at replying to emails and Oxford while good at replying use sales staff as their primary customer interface which could be a bit frustrating sometimes.

Personally after applying, and failing to get onto, a number of mentored schemes I decided that since I have a PPL and being near to completion of modular ATPL theory continuing with modular is probably the best thing for me. Everyone's situation is different...

If someone starting from scratch with average motivation and industry knowledge though came to me for advice I would point them in the direction of CTC...with the obvious risk assessment highlighted...

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Old 1st Oct 2013, 03:02
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From page one of this thread, posted in 2010. Roughly how much have the prices changed in 2013 money?

2 years! - PPL for £6200, 45hrs
6months - ATPL groundschool fulltime Cabair £2250 + living exp. = £3,200 (good name, would recommend groundschool @ Bournemouth).
5months - Hour building @ £70ph + landing fees etc = £8500 - UK based
3months - Multi CPL/IR at PAT, Bournemouth = £26,000inc exams - (great name, instructors) + living exp.£1,600
1 week - MCC @ European = £1,900 living exp £120

Modular route......priceless!
(Total: £48,170)
under 15months taken out from completing PPL.
200.1 hours total.


I've just turned 30 and just lost my job. I'm considering starting an integrated training route or going back to university to study something (not aviation related) that is equally bad jobwise as pilot training. I want all the facts I can before I make a decision.
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Old 1st Oct 2013, 12:21
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EMA747

Similar age to you (28) and considering a career change, I keep coming across the same comments which are more or less; Employers have preference for Integrated candidates over Modular.

I would love to see some statistics!

Modular would be more manageable for me, but it's a no brainer if it really does come down to Integrated=job Modular=no job Is this really the case?
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Old 1st Oct 2013, 19:03
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Well I live only a few miles from EMA so I was planning on doing the PPL at the flight school there so that I didn't have to travel to far to each lesson.

The other parts will obviously require a greater level of financial planning. If I took the university option it would mean me having to relocate to another part of the country and with the rental costs, food, tuition fees etc etc I think the total bill would be around the £45-50K mark. In other words not so different to flying via a modular route. Around £30K of the uni costs would be via the standard government loan so would take the sting out of that. Sadly no such option exists for learning to fly so it would require more careful planning.
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Old 1st Oct 2013, 20:47
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Actually, you can get government loans for flight training, at certain school they now offer 42k of government funding:

Pilots now eligible for government financial support with Higher Apprenticeship | Pilot Career News
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Old 1st Oct 2013, 21:46
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That's interesting and a step in the right direction. It does seem from that article that it wouldn't work for modular though.
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 07:42
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Taybird,
If you have any details about gaining access to this funding scheme down a modular route it would be appreciated here also
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 12:14
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Why am I not British? Why am I not living in the UK?
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 13:02
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Its not as such funding for pilot training.

Its just they have cobbled together something which gets the under the umbrella of a University and then gives access to national student loans system. The means tested grants are pretty much common with all University's, your family really needs to be renting accommodation and both parents earning less than 16k combined before you will get a look in.

But what it doesn't tell you is that there will also be University fee's on top of the training fees. Currently they are about 7k per year and a normal degree in England is 3 years long. Which is at least 1 year longer than normal for a cadet scheme.

I would be surprised if this changes anything for the majority of wannabies.
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 16:06
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Its not as such funding for pilot training
Well, it is because you don't have to attend a university campus or pay any more money to obtain the degree. All you have to do is be accepted on to an integrated course at the certain flight schools and do it (I'm not sure how this works with modular)
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 16:48
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@ smartguys - Sadly I think it doesn't work at all for modular. I was up half the last night reading as much as I could find about the scheme and not once did it mention anything about modular.

I think basically they have decided that the workload of integrated schemes is equivalent to a university degree and as such you can now be awarded a BSc degree. That means it's classed the same as all other degrees and thus comes under the funding scheme that all degrees do. That is a loan by the government/student loans company for the fully tuition fees (up to £9K a year I think) plus a means tested maintenance allowance of up to £5K a year I think.
This only has to be pain back when you start earning over £21K a year and is on a sliding scale from there. At the lowest end I think it equates to a very small amount out of a £21K pay packet.
This is the reason it seems very much a step in the right direction. The fact that you don't have to pay back straight away would certainly take a lot of pressure off while looking for a first airline job or type rating or whatever.

However, with it being only applicable though a few integrated courses like CTC Wings it actually has much less appeal. You still get tied in to a costly course and the £9K a year loan won't go to far towards the full cost of these integrated courses.
Now if you could do it for a modular course it would go a long way to funding the bulk of training and thus in my opinion would be of much more value to those of us with very limited funding options.
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 17:46
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Yeah I see what your saying but I don't think the work load of an integrated course is much more than a modular course. So I can't see why they wouldn't allow the funding for say a modular student at ctc for example. But I am not sure

Oh and by the way, it's only the maintenance loan that is dependant on what your parents are earning, right? I mean, do you still get 9k a year no matter what your parents are earning?
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Old 2nd Oct 2013, 19:10
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They will have to do a lot more than the normal syllabus to get the degree. The syllabus will give you credits within the degree. But not the full lot. There will also be a dissertation to do.

Hence modular wouldn't cut the mustard unless they got the Open university involved to make up the rest of the syllabus. And none of the big players will be pushing for that.

And the university won't matriculate you for nothing there will be additional fee's for the degree side of things. It doesn't matter if you are on campus or not. And on top of that you will have to pay for the flying side of things.

The good news is though that they may be able to not charge VAT on the course because of the education degree side of things. But I suspect the customs and exercise may have something to say about that as it will mean they will be 12k down on each student. Or of course they may charge you the standard price and pocket the VAT as profit. I have a suspicion I know what they are going to do if they can get away with it.
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Old 3rd Oct 2013, 00:26
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@smartguy - Yep as far as I am aware everyone gets the tuition fee loan regardless of personal or parental income. The living allowance" is the means tested bit. If anyone is interested I know a government website that you can put in some details and it will give you a rough assessment of what sort of loan amount you can get.

I guess another reason they won't allow modular is that you can take lessons anywhere you want and change schools for different parts. It would be much harder to keep track of.


Basically as I see it - If the government where going to loan me around £30K that I only had to pay back when I was earning over £21K then I would almost certainly go and do modular training. As it is I will have to fund that out of my own pocket which makes the decision MUCH MUCH harder to make and MUCH more risky. All the words the providers are saying about the student loan for pilots making it easier for people to afford training are in my case a load of BS really. I'm sure it's quite a help if you can afford an integrated course though and good luck and best wished to all that use it to go down that route.

Last edited by EMA747; 3rd Oct 2013 at 00:28.
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