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Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.


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Old 8th Nov 2012, 12:22   #441 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
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Age: 29
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hi there after all of that outlay are you currently got a job??
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Old 12th Jan 2013, 15:36   #442 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lebanon
Posts: 26
This topic is one of the most argued in this field. " Modular vs Integrated"
Well, what I always ask is: If both routes take you to the same exact license, and can be accomplished in the same exact interval of time ( 12-14 months- full time), why is it that airlines in Europe prefer the cadets that have gone through the integrated route ??
does it really affect your employment?
If one is able to cover the costs of the integrated training at CTC,OAA, AFT, FTE... do you advise them to go through this route? or save money and go through the modular route? what are the real things that differ between the 2?
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Old 12th Jan 2013, 15:45   #443 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Hagop,

Since you are from Lebanon, you maybe should look at Middle East Airline's cadet program. As you will see, they are affiliated with FTE Jerez's integrated program.
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Old 12th Jan 2013, 16:40   #444 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lebanon
Posts: 26
Yup that's correct, they have just launched a new selection phase 1 month ago, but I am currently studying my last year of school, that means I cannot apply yet... they have a minimum requirement of at least 1 year of university...
I will keep looking forward to apply to their program next year, but will continue on searching for other flight schools as well, no one knows what will happen !
Cheers.
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 21:07   #445 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Okay one thing is clear: modular can be done cheaper than integrated. But when I say that there is an integrated flight training school in the Balkans and South-East Europe, where the price is in the near of €60k.. What about that?

With the schools I mentioned:
- Baltic Aviation Academy
- Egnatia Aviation Academy

I've spoken to students from these schools and the students from BAA were more positive than the students from EAA.

What about this idea?
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Old 17th Jan 2013, 22:18   #446 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Georgia
Age: 23
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where to take atpl in uk?

hello guys, want to take atpl and need your help, dont want to pay £80,000 for ofxord or ctc, cause basically i'm paying for the name and brand, but there's another question if i dont study in oxford or cts, i will never work for BA, jetstar, etc.? cause they only apply people from oxford or cts, what would you recommend? thanks
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 06:41   #447 (permalink)


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Just to say...

Just to say thanks to all who have contributed useful advice to this thread- it's been a journey reading the whole thing but definitely worth it.

I am currently in the saving up/dreaming stage of flight as I realised being a racing motorcycles professionally wasn't going to cut it (yet actually seems a cheaper option than most professional pilot routes!)

One question after looking up (at present) 35 non-uk flight schools for a decent deal (I have a spreadsheet if anyone wants my research), I note some of you recommend only doing your training at one school, or two if you're training overseas (return to the UK for an ME/IR). Would you include the PPL in that as well? Reason being an FAA PPL is fine for me pre-EASA CPL and I will build hours in the US. So it would be cheapest for me to go to an FAA 141 school for PPL and hours, then go to EFT for CPL, then back to the UK for the ME/IR and MCC. Would this preclude me from getting a job?

I've never used so many bloody TLAs in my life! Aviation is a terrifying prospect but I would be happy flying small planes and have at present no desire to step into either seat of a passenger jet.

Thanks in advance and I hope I've done my research ok.
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Old 21st Feb 2013, 13:32   #448 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Just to ad to the apeal of going the modular route is the fact that you can do the training in one EASA state, but have the EASA state you hold your medical in issue you the license In this way you can shop around for the training and still have your country of recidence issue the papers.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 00:54   #449 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Yet another mod vs int question...

OK, here goes a question that I know has been asked in one way or another hundreds of times before! I must have read the answers to every thread out there but things change over time and every situation is different so I will ask it anyway…:

MODULAR or INTEGRATED ???

I am a PPL with a little (‘unstructured’) hour building post-qualification. My ultimate aim is to work for an airline, and although I wouldn’t mind doing a bit of other aerial work in the short term, I would appreciate it if people keep sight of that in their answers.

So the question is that given I’m still at a fairly early stage, would it be worth starting again on an integrated course, or carrying on modular? As with many things in life it’s about weighing the pros against the cons. The way I see it I have 3 options, all with their own plusses and minuses. I’ve listed them here, and I would be really interested hear whether people feel my pros/cons are justified, and how much weight people would put on each…

---option 1---

Modular training at my local FTO (Flying time aviation in Shoreham)
Pros: cheapest option (ME-CPL/IR cost £20,000 with cheapish hour building), local

Cons: Not one of the big training schools, no ‘partnership’ with any airlines.

---option 2---

Modular training at one of the bigger schools (eg CTC Takeoff)
Pros: Eligible to get into their APL pool, school many airlines know well and are used to recruiting from on your training record.

Cons: More expensive (a bit), second class citizen as far as the APL pool is concerned (you give way to their cadets and may never stop getting bumped), extra cost associated with moving/commuting to Bournemouth!

---option 3---

Integrated training (eg CTC wings)
Pros: Enter the APL pool on completion as ‘first class citizen (ie cadet)’. Well known training school on your record.

Cons: Much more expensive. Not possible to build around work so would have to take a lot of time off (adds a LOT more cost again!)
---
The way I see it the modular course is gonna cost me say £50,000 where as the integrated will be more like £70,000+. Obviously I would like to save that 20,000+ but at the end of the day you spending a lot of money either way. Spending 70,000 and maximising ones chances of getting a job is, imho, far preferable to spending 50,000 with very little chance of actually making it to the right hand seat of an airliner. I know of many integrated pilots who have gone on to get airline jobs with fairly low hours (250-300 seems typical), and have still yet to hear of any modular pilot who have got an airline job, especially with sub 1000 hours. For better or for worse it does seem that the integrated method is what the airlines seem to be going for these days. With this in mind, would people bite the bullet if in my shoes and go integrated (I know a job is still not a guarantee!) or take your chances with the modular/ If the latter, anyone got any tips/ideas for how to actually get an (airline) job at the end of it all?!

Thanks in advance for any replies.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 01:17   #450 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 196
Become qualified (modular) debt free; join GAPAN; network.

Or

Join the CTC bandwagon and don't look back.
Can you afford it? If so, can you afford a life without flying if the airline dumps you after your 6 month contract finishes?

Last edited by Contact Approach; 2nd Mar 2013 at 01:19.
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Old 2nd Mar 2013, 09:31   #451 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: In the sky
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I know modular students who have gotten jobs, and have no debts also funnily enough. In fact, a few of those modulars are due to begin their TR with a small UK regional airline.
There are many things to take into consideration when looking to train Mac, the aviation industry likes to fluctuate in it opportunities, so it is quite hard to say what will be the case in 18 months from now. I mean OAA students who are graduating now are beginning to panic as Ryanair are closing recruitment in April and that is essentially Parcs only very strong airline link if you are not on a tagged scheme. In a situation like that you could either sit around and wait for your recruitment agency to find you another opportunity which in Parcs case could be a while or you could go out and look yourself. If your looking yourself for work, then what is the benefit of having gone integrated? So I feel, it is about luck and timing when going integrated.
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Old 3rd Mar 2013, 00:29   #452 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Hi all.

Thanks very much that is very useful advice. At the end of the day my preferred choice would be modular, not just because its cheaper but also because I could do it closer to home and do a few locum shifts in my current job (im a doctor in the NHS) to make some more cash while undergoing flight training which would further reduce my financial headache.

BUT at the end of the day I am making quite a pretty massive commitment (both career-wise and financially) by doing this and my primary aim is to actually get a job! The fact that the job market is so shaky worries me, a lot, but it’s a risk I have decided to take. What I really want to do is minimise that risk as much as I can. I have read a LOT of views about this on these forums and lots of people (I have to say most of them without a job) seem to support modular. However there are quite a few comments that i have collected from across the PPRuNe forums (many from this thread) that do make me think twice about which is best.....

Quote:
Since completing my modular cpl/ir in 2009, I sent out my cv and applications to all the airlines and charter companies I could find across the world. I heard back from 4 in total
And

Quote:
As for a modular fATPL: it seems to be untouchable these days (not in yesteryear)
And

Quote:
I'm all for people training on a modular basis, but I really question how you will get a job in the current environment.
And

Quote:
EZY/BA/TCX/Monarch etc. - don't touch modular.
Now compare this with

Quote:
I know lots of people flying for Monarch due to CTC
and

Quote:
I don't think many people will deny that your chances of employment post-qualification are higher if you go through CTC or OAA
and

Quote:
If you have the money, CTC is the way to go.]
Now, I know that there are some comments the other way round, but less so. Sadly (for me) I am not one of the much disliked rich kids whose parents have paid for them to go integrated. However I am in the fortunate position of having worked hard for many years and have a (relatively) well paid job as a doctor. Having said that I am likely to have to borrow which ever way I do this, but I can go back to working as a doc while im in the ‘holding pool’, pretty much indefinitely. With this in mind I am finding this a very difficult choice to make. I really WANT the answer here to be modular, but it seems like (for better of worse) the bottom here line is that if your looking to work for a big airline with fairly few hours integrated seems to be a safer bet. I really do value the advice of ppruners, and any you have for me would be greatly appreciated. Please tell me i've got this totally wrong!?

Thanks all for the advice.
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Old 3rd Mar 2013, 07:56   #453 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 674
Think carefully before embarking on this.

I always encourage people to look at OAA employment statistics.

2012 : 202 people got got but 159 had to pay for TR.

Only 43!! got jobs without having to pay for it. Some of those are not UK carriers and doubt that a UK resident would be considered for a vacancy.

8 went to flybe and in all probability will be facing redundancy.

I have been told on good authority OAA throw in the stats people who trained from previous years and modular.

I joined a UK regional airline 6 years ago thinking 'couple of years then something better'. Hasn't happened for nearly all of us. Very few went on to Jet2 and a few to vistajet.

I don't want to p*ss on anyone BBQ but getting a job can be the hardest part of the course, if you know what i mean
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Old 4th Mar 2013, 17:19   #454 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southwest UK
Posts: 52
Macs,

I find myself in a similar position to you for all the reasons you have highlighted.

My personal opinion is that IF there is a MUCH higher possibility of a job on completion of training, then it is worth paying the extra amount and you get what you pay for. You have made a point in saying that some airlines don't even touch modular students and that unfortunately is true.

If I knew I was going to get a job quickly after finishing training (1 year hold pool at most) then I would pay more rather than be in less amount of debt but facing the possibility of years without getting a job. However, what worries me is getting placed with the likes of EZY/RYR with a massive debt and on flexicrew getting raped. Would I say it's worth it then? Probably not. However, some have been very lucky (permanent contracts with respectable carriers).

Just wish things were a lot clearer!
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Old 10th Mar 2013, 19:06   #455 (permalink)


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Hello all,

I appreciate this is probably post #4723462374 on this topic but nonetheless I am in need of some serious answers. Please bare with me.

I am a UK student in my final year of A-Level exams looking for a career as a Pilot. I am taking Physics, Maths and Chemistry and am looking to get A*, A, A respectively.

However, I also hold a PPL and have almost achieved my IMC rating.

As far as I am aware, this rules me out of most airline integrated "sponsorship" schemes since I have more than 85 hours of flying experience.

However, I am also aware that the most favoured route for employment is the integrated route. As a result, I'd like to do the self-funded Integrated course at OAA to maximize my chance.

Again however, I may consider going to University to do an undergraduate Physics degree. By the point of completing this degree I would have probably amassed 200+ flight hours just from leisure flying in my spare time, which would make doing a "from scratch" integrated course quite silly.

As a result, I have considered the modular route. However, I keep hearing repeated stories over and over again that fresh modular pilots are unemployable. Indeed, apparently BA do not accept modular pilots.

So this is my dilemma. I want to do the APPFO course at OAA but am not sure it's best for me. Modular would be good but I am worried about the lack of employability.

I have attended many different airline career days, including several at OAA, and I keep coming away asking the same questions to myself in my head.

Any advice at all will be appreciated.
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Old 12th Mar 2013, 09:41   #456 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 135
I would not embark on flight training if I was a doctor, probably full stop. The only possible caveat I would add to this was unless I had a large pot of cash that could fund being out of work and to subsidise a poor first wage. And then, if I had a large pot of cash on top of that needed for flight training, I would probably use it for something else!

So you get lucky and bag a job with a TP operator 1 to 2 years post training and the starting salary is circa £20k to £25k PAYE, based god knows where. That's a long time earning stuff all!! Can you survive on that, let alone live!?

And you really have to get lucky to land that gig. Draw up a list of operators who employ low hour modular graduates, it won't be a very long one. Add to that Easy and Ryan expansion coming to an end soon and you'll have a large number of integrated students going for those jobs too. Going integrated isn't paved with gold either, there is quite a significant amount chasing jobs on scabby TP the other side of the globe now!

It's bleak out there and I can't see it getting any better anytime soon unfortunately. I think I've just talked myself out of the caveat!!
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Old 12th Mar 2013, 10:18   #457 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
Posts: 10,117
I suspect the airlines who take low houred modular pilots will continue to do so and the intergrated will continue not to get a look in.

Currently there are sales reps travellng around europe visiting anyone from the operators flying the biggest heaps of poo upwards if there is a sniff they are taking on low houred FO's.

The operators who currently take modular will have been visited already and will have declinded the offer from the schools because they prefer modular trained pilots. More intergrated trained pilots applying for the jobs will just mean more cv's in the bucket.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 11:02   #458 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: In the sky
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Sorry I just need to correct a point which appears to be a recurring theme on the previous page and that is that BA apparently don't take on modulars. Whilst at CTC ground school, I had the fortunate luck of encountering a BA captain who assists in interviewing applicants and I posed the question to him "Do BA take on Modular applicants" and his response was that they do as long as they had 1500 hours, then it makes no difference. So all this "BA don't take on modulars", that is untrue. That is all
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 11:33   #459 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 214
Agree with the above post.

Think about it; if BA only took pilots who came from an integrated school, don't you think the likes of Oxford and CTC would be making a MASSIVE noise about it in their marketing?!

"Go integrated or NEVER get into BA...fact!" (or something similar!)

They will only take low hours guys direct from an integrated school (specifically from Oxford/CTC/FTE via the Future Pilot Programme) but for direct entry all they care about is how you perform in the sim and at assessment, that is how they will judge you, not based on whic school you came from.
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Old 13th Mar 2013, 18:44   #460 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Posts: 544
Macs86

Modular vs integrated is too emotive a subject to get an objective reply. You will see very partial views one way or the other, largely backed by a person who trained that particular way.

Modular or integrated, either way, I don't see a whole lot out there for either at the moment. There have been a lucky few outside the tagged schemes on the integrated side who have made it into Monarch, easy and Thomson recently. A similar handful have gone into regional turboprops recently via the modular route. Either way, Ryanair aside, its slim pickings.

The way I have seen some not insignificant success recently is the canny cadet (either mod or int) obtaining a job as cabin crew / flight planner / ops / dispatcher at a target airline and getting into the flight deck through the back door. It is a very quiet side of recruitment, but it happens quite a lot at the right airline. Read the article on the last page of Flight this week as an example.

It is impossible to plan which route is best, because by the time you have trained, the situation will most likely have changed. The old adage "You pay your money and take your chances" remains regrettably true.
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