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Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.


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Old 17th May 2012, 10:37   #341 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: london
Posts: 6
Taking modular abroad

HI

I am new to the forum and have been busting my brain on weather to go Mod or Int and i just cant decide. i have recently passed my OAA skills test but still thinking MOD. at the end the frozen atpl is still the same. in the thread its all about the uk employers if you're happy to go abroad will modular still hold weight in other countries??
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:59   #342 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: london
Posts: 6
Working abroad

Guys if i go modular and pass and get my Fatpl will i still be able to take that overseas and find work??

thanks
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Old 17th May 2012, 21:15   #343 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Aberdeen,Scotland,UK
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You will have the same license as any one else which is a CPL/IR.

most countrys will just look at you if you say I was trained modular or intergrated. They won't have a clue what you are on about.

You will have as much chance as anyone else which is next to **** all.
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Old 19th May 2012, 23:32   #344 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,178
Quote:
You will have the same license as any one else which is a CPL/IR.
Which is when the realisation dawns that isn't goint to cut much ice with the cadet scemes of British airways, easyjet, Thomson, Monarch, Thomas Cook, DHL, Qatar airways, etc.....

They will expect you to have obtained your licence by one of these integrated programmes. Most airlines will affiliate themselves to one of the big 3. British airways gave you the choice of all 3. The licence simply isn't the be all and end all that some people would hope it was.
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Old 20th May 2012, 09:12   #345 (permalink)
 
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Exactly so if your not on one of those schemes its not really worth paying the extra for.

So unless your on a cadet scheme and there isn't another good reason for paying the premium such as you would struggle to self learn without it being spoon fed to you then modular is the way forward.

Any other reason such as you think that its going to give you a boost in your chances to other operators who don't run schemes means that you are subsidising the prefered training method of the legacy carriers and big boys.
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Old 21st May 2012, 09:03   #346 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: london
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well like you said Mad Jock unless you are on one of these MPL schemes its all the same thing anyway. And surely once you hit your 1500 hours your just as employable as anyone else?
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Old 21st May 2012, 12:09   #347 (permalink)
 
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For small TP companys you need to get 1000 hour guys just so its only 500 hours before they can get an ATPL.

After that the next step is type rating and 500+ multi crew and ATPL issued.

The multi crew bit is a bit of a hanging point. If you can get your hands on a 200-500 hour multi engine pilot they would be the first on the list but there isn't many about these days.

The other problem is as well is that you need 700 hours IFR experence or something like that for flying single crew AoC ops.
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Old 24th May 2012, 12:05   #348 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire
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It seems that if you can get on to one of the MPL 'sponsored' schemes (I use the term extremely loosely!) then your chances of employment are as close to being guaranteed without actually expressing that. As such, they are by far and away the best route.

However, if you don't get on to one and just go through the normal integrated route (CTC cadets, OAA APP) then at the end of it you stand only a slightly better chance than the modular guys, who have all the same certificates.

The reason that you have a slightly better chance is that you will be placed with airlines when vacancies come up before the modular guys. Why? Well, why else would you just have paid 84k for a set of licences you could have got for under 50k!

At the end of the day, the main benefit of going through CTC, OAA etc is that your chances of getting employment are marginally better than those who went modular, purely because of the contracts those FTO's have with the major airlines.

If you have the means to risk debts of upwards of 80k (plus more for Type Rating) on no promise of a job then integrated is the way forward, but otherwise go modular, then the only risk you face is that after it all you have slightly less chance than the integrated guys straight of OAA/CTC. However, you will have paid for your training as you work, and hence still be in employment whilst waiting for an airline job, and have the means to pay off a much smaller loan to cover anything you borrowed.

As a result, you can afford to take that risk of not being placed with an airline for a period of time post-training, then once you have a place and get the magical 1,500 hours and an unfrozen licence then you are in the same boat as all the integrated guys...except, of course, that this is where the modular guys should have the upper hand because they have life/work/management/etc experience IN ADDITION TO those 1,500 hours and an unfrozen licence. Who looks more promising to a prospective employee now?

Last edited by Libertine Winno; 24th May 2012 at 12:16.
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Old 24th May 2012, 13:53   #349 (permalink)
 
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There are more than a few operators that won't touch intergrated product yep they are small but they tend to have a steady through put of low timers/ex instructors.

I would say you cut off as many options as you open by going intergrated.


And 84k gets you CPL/IR/MCC/FI, a type rating and a car if you go modular.
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Old 24th May 2012, 15:15   #350 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire
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I don't doubt you are right Mad Jock (and for my sake,I hope you are!), but I guess the challenge lies in finding said operators!

Still, happy hunting!
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Old 24th May 2012, 15:19   #351 (permalink)
 
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Most of the jobs are through word of mouth and people putting your CV on peoples desks at the right time.
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Old 24th May 2012, 16:08   #352 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: England
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Quote:
And 84k gets you CPL/IR/MCC/FI, a type rating and a car if you go modular
But no job.
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Old 24th May 2012, 16:18   #353 (permalink)
 
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It has for 5 pilots in the last year that I have flown with new online. All sub 1000 hours and modular.
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Old 24th May 2012, 17:34   #354 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire
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I don't think many people will deny that your chances of employment post-qualification are higher if you go through CTC or OAA, simply because it is in their interests to place cadets over other pilots who haven't paid them grossly over the odds for an integrated course.

However, I struggle to justify the risk of being out of work and facing BBVA loan payments of 1k+ per month, even if it is only for a few months. There are no guarantees in this industry, and in 18 months time we could just as easily be in the midst of an even worse recession and banking crisis than we were in 2008, as we could be in the position where there are more jobs than there are low hours pilots to fill them.

If you have the means not to worry about that risk then lucky you, go integrated, but if you (and your parents!) are going to be royally screwed if you dont get placed for 6 months then I would seriously consider the wisdom of risking all that. Just my views!
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Old 25th May 2012, 14:41   #355 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 554
I'm all for people training on a modular basis, but I really question how you will get a job in the current environment.

Yes - there's MJ's outfit, but MJ - how many have gone onto jet aircraft later on?

RYR - very possible

Flybe - not at present - all tagged in recent years.

EZY/BA/TCX/Monarch etc. - don't touch modular.

With modular, it seems to be RYR or nothing.
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Old 25th May 2012, 14:56   #356 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 553
"RYR or nothing."

Sadly, it's that mentality that is the reason so many 200hr modulars are unemployed.

----

Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR. A couple of months ago NAX were taking on fATPLs for their 737s, modular was accepted. Don't know why so many people are so eager to jump on a jet anyway, has nobody thought how boring it would get flying jets for a 40 year career? If you're 25 when you get onto a 737, come 45 you'll probably be bored of it.

And when you're bored you might want to explore other things like bush flying, but then you're faced with pretty bad pay if you want to support a family.

Have fun flying, do fun things. Instruct, aerial survey etc. When a family is on the horizon then hit the jets up and try to get better pay.

There are jobs out there for 200hr modulars but you just need to find them. And there are aerial survey jobs, instructing etc for newbies but they aren't advertised. You have to find them yourself.

Can't pay your loan back on an instructors wage? I wouldn't get into this industry in debt tbh, work and save up. If you live at home with no commitments you could work on minimum wage and have enough money for modular within 3 years.

This post is mainly aimed at those young guys who just want to go to CTC or OAA. Think guys! You probably don't have a family, go do some real flying! If you truly loved flying you'd explore all types of flying rather than just passenger jets. And modular is the way for doing all this.

But maybe some of you 18 year olds just want to show your Monarch uniform to your school teachers.

If you're a lot older than 18, than I can see why integrated is the better option for you. I just can't get my head round why teenagers are itching to go on a 100k course and fly a jet until they are 66 years old.

Last edited by pudoc; 25th May 2012 at 15:01.
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Old 25th May 2012, 15:58   #357 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Quote:
Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR
Great - please list them to help new modular grads.

Quote:
When a family is on the horizon then hit the jets up and try to get better pay
Explain that to the flybe guys!


Quote:
"RYR or nothing."

Sadly, it's that mentality that is the reason so many 200hr modulars are unemployed
.

There are many reasons why mods are unemployed, but chief amongst them is that the vast majority of airlines don't take them on. That would be fine if the airlines required experienced pilots as the mods could work their way up, but they don't. They like 200 hr integrated pilots as they are very cheap but still can be perceived as lower risk.

pudoc - I agree with your posts for those simply looking to fly, but to join an airline in the current market is a lot harder for mods. I don't like that but unfortunately it seems to be reality.
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Old 25th May 2012, 16:18   #358 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: EU
Posts: 553
My post wasn't really aimed at you FANS, only the first bit.

Regarding Flybe, yes your right it's not as black and white as I made out. I was just trying to get through to any young guys reading and deciding mod v int.

Quote:
Quote:
Even if you just want to limit yourself to a jet there's a lot more on the horizon than RYR
Great - please list them to help new modular grads.
I've actually deleted a lot of this. I didn't realise at the time but when I first posted this I gave away a lot of companies names. I haven't even got a job yet so until I do I don't want to increase my competition.

But basically, plenty of people get RHS on jets out of modular. It's all about making contacts and finding out who's hiring.

Last edited by pudoc; 25th May 2012 at 20:17.
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Old 5th Jun 2012, 09:12   #359 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: london
Posts: 6
everyone keeps talking about the british carriers has anyone thought of taking your application abroad to fly? where there is less competition, where they love british born pilots and where it will be a great opportunity to gain experience. Many countries over many continents all require pilots why put all your eggs in one basket?
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Old 16th Jun 2012, 17:46   #360 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Age: 22
Posts: 7
This is how I currently see it - you are paying up to 100,000 (incl. living) for the airline connections made for you by the FTO. The biggest question on my mind is really.. is this worth it???

I don't want to go integrated. I have nothing at all bad to say about the FTOs (apart from being turned off by the glossy, glossy brochures) but I just cannot justify spending such a vast sum of cash on what seems to be a slightly more advantageous position in terms of applying to a FO position on a jet, which, at the moment, appeals to me very little!

What worries me though is just how significant the extra 60k spent at OAA/CTC etc becomes later on. I would imagine an integrated pilot (lets say 200hrs, hired straight out of FTO X into carrier X) would experience a quicker progression in terms of salary, type etc, whilst I have been given the impression from a few modular-hired guys that its easy to get stuck in a low paying job with little room for a break into anything bigger. Whilst Modular is far cheaper, it doesn't work out cheaper if you don't earn anything for 2 years after completing it...

Apologies for this as I know it's been done to death - However thoughts v. much appreciated......i just cannot make my mind up!

Cheers

Last edited by Uniform267; 16th Jun 2012 at 17:47.
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