Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Yes you do make a very good point Beazelbub. Everyone would choose integrated but it's not viable for some people. Personally; I was modular until I got a cadetship so im now starting integrated training. Would I have otherwise no. Do I think with working a full week flying at weekends and studying for exams will be done as good as if I was flying the whole time no. For those that are thinking of doing the modular and work. I would recommend you to try it first. A 1 hr flight will take 3 hours out of your day home to home time. Longer flights may take your whole day. Can you work a full day then study for 3-4 hours in the evening for ATPL exams and get enough time off from your employer for the revision courses usually 2 weeks before the exams. Your looking at around 30 days of holiday all used on Flying.
Friday night you come home and sleep ready for flying your not out on the piss even though you've had a hard week.
I'm not saying that it's going to be easy but these are the questions that you have to ask yourself and I have found personally that when I start adding up the costs of Modular e.g. extra time required as the weather has been shit for the past 6 weekends. Regulatory fee's ect. Then it falls around the 55k mark.
Yes is it cheaper than integrated no doubt but the question you have to ask yourself is; can you justify spending the extra money in order to complete the course quicker and "hopefully" to a better standard because your fully immersed.
I've been waiting for the last 3 years now so this is my chance; there will never be another opportunity in my life to make this happen and have wanted to do this since like 8. I think the problem is people leaving schools and choosing ah i'll be a pilot lots of money and good career; without the resolve to make it thorugh the tough initial period.
BoeingDreamer: I got some money as a loan and some money as a scholarship. The loan part i have to pay back, but it is a very low interest rate, much lower than any bank. I do not have to pay anything before i start working again. I know guys who borrowed money and they had to calculate mortgage and interest rate for the duration of the flight training.
Now, the end cost comes in relation on how much you must fly. I busted my A$$, studied really really hard and did everything within minimums. Yes it can be done. And my costs are down.
I calculate that after two years, i will be all the ratings Commercial single, multi, CFI, CFII, MEI in both FAA and JAA for around 50000GBP/80000USD, a college degree in Aviation Science and more than 600 multi hours. And i will be working as a flight instructor for around 1 year earning money towards my degree.
Boys, look, this argument isn't achieving anything. At the end of the day there are always going to be two options. No one is saying either way is right or wrong. You buy a Audi or Ford - they'll both get you from London to Leeds. Some people like Ford, some like Audi. You're always going to have a demand for the more expensive and apparently exclusive integrated schemes - that's just the way people are and vice versa.
That said..
As it stands all those who have spent out £80K+ on a integrated course are getting is a jet job with crap terms and conditions, crap pay and crap contracts. Yeah, at least they're getting experience on type but most are heavily in debt and will be paying the money back for years to come.
Modular guys, keep up the hard work - as much as some people like to tell you your hard work is worth nothing because you're not as desirable as integrated students, they're wrong. There will always be competition between the divides. Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving - surely that says it all?
If people want to go integrated then let them do so. Sooner or later the demand for pilots is going to become so great that even the large flight schools won't be able to quench the industries thirst.
Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating!
Believe me, your efforts will be rewarded sooner or later.
I didn't want to yet dragged back into this disussion, but I just wanted to reiterate the point I was trying to make earlier, partic in light of the assertion student88 makes that eventually demand will be so high that the airlines will HAVE to emoy everyone.
What I would implore everyone considering flight training to do is consider the WHOLE costs - not just the headline financial cost. Look at the discussion DSB and I were having earlier in the thread and consider how it impacts your long term earning, time to command etc. Look at the very cogent arguments beazlebub puts forward - MOST people I know in life come to the conclusion - at some point - in their life that simply buying the cheapest [whatever it may be] isn't necessarily getting the best value for your money - so why do you expect it to be so for Flight training?
Modular or integrated will both get you a blue book. They are different beasts, so you cant simply say one is better than the other.... Instead it is up to YOU, the buyer, to familiarise yourself with all aspects of the pros and cons of both sides and choose accordingly.
Clanger32, or anyone else, as a matter of interest how do the modular courses at OAA CTC etc compare with intergrated? I have read on here over the years that intergrated get 'preferential treatment'?
I have a friend who went through OAA intergrated a few years ago, now at FR. He is happy, but then its what he has always wanted to do hence us being friends for so many years, because of shared interest. I must say its difficult to hold back seeing other people enjoying what I have also wanted to do for as long as I can remember, but I have to be sensible and seeing how much debt he left with, and knowing that (according to him) less than half of his course have found paid flying gigs, it just does not seem like a viable path to go down now.
I am very close to the end of a (long protracted) PPL, the dilemma I face is do I forget about commercial flight training and try to forge out a career in something else (being 28 now), or do I keep on aiming too high for myself? I dont expect anyone to answer that, it is a rhetorical question, but Im sure there are others on here in the same position. Clearly I will continue to fly for fun, (its a great thing to have on the CV too!), and the fun of it is why I started in the first place, plus the great people you meet involved in aviation. I just cant help thinking that spending any money, be it modular or intergrated, is the equivalent of piling it all in the garden and setting fire to it.
How I long for the days where you had to work your way up through instructing/general GA jobs, and only those few good enough to get on the mentored (sponsored) schemes got straight into the RHS of a jet...
Sorry for the ramble, I dont tend to post on these threads but I have been keeping an eye on them on a daily basis, for years, and I must thank all of the regulars (WWW, Bealzibub et al) for their rather excellent insight into the industry that you would not necessarily get elsewhere.
Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving - surely that says it all?
The fact that they "at work" certainly says something. However I am not sure the nickname really does. Initials do have a tendancy to lend themselves to overstated humour. I have been flying with cadets from these programmes for nearly 15 years now and have yet to meet one who has expressed any regret for the training choice they made. In fact most if not all seem to recognise the opportunity they have been afforded as very low hour pilots in gaining this type of opportunity.
A significant and growing number of airline companies have recognised the cost savings and flexibility that these cadet programmes afford them, and as they emerge from recession (to whatever degree,) these programmes are only likely to expand. A lot of investment has been made in recent years to provide for an increase in capacity and business. Take a look at the investment companies such as Flybe in Exeter are making in training facilities.
The idea that there will be a flood of opportunities so overwhelming that these organisations cannot cope with demand, is certainly one that they would rub their hands in glee at the anticipation of, but it is very unlikely to happen in reality.
A rapid expansion in growth generally, would simply introduce additional demand into the overall pilot market. That demand would be supplied by much the same sources as it always has been: experienced pilots looking to change jobs; military pilots; and career advancement pilots with sufficient levels of experience.
At the 250 hour level, the only changes likely based on current trends, projections, and even the most optimistic forecasts, are through these cadet schemes, simply because at this level of experience, and for airline flying, these are cadet opportunities. Outside of these schemes, the best opportunities are likely to be afforded to those who graduate themselves into the "career advancement" category by obtaining the levels of experience traditionally required by airlines looking for recruits who meet those minimum levels or better.
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Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating!
What this blindly fails to recognise, is that those who have found airline employment on the types of contracts you mention, will have elevated themselves into the "career advancement" and "job changer" category. Not only that, but they will do so with significant levels of relevant experience, that would make them very attractive in the "overwhelming" scenario you suggest.
There are certainly going to be opportunities in the future. The industry has evolved and will continue to do so. People embarking on training courses now will need to work hard, and chase whatever opportunities at whatever level may be there to be sought out. For most it will be an arduous and very frustrating climb. Some will succeed, some will fail and some will make significant levels of compromise. Why? Because it has always been like that. The idea that yesterdays 2000 hour "self improver" is todays 250 hour "modular" wannabe, is a fallacy.
I actually don't care whether anybody believes this, agrees or disagrees. I would simply say open your eyes and look at what is actually happening in the real world. The company I work for is taking on around 20 pilots this year and the mix is half from the "experienced" pilot market, and half from an integrated training provider. Any further expansion next year is likely to see similar fractions from the same sources.
Student 88, look at your own employer. Low hour cadets from an integrated training provider. Expansion into even lower hour cadets from another integrated training provider. Experienced pilots from the career change/advancement categories.
These cadets metamorphorsize from "cadets" into the other categories within 24 months normally, and there is no shortage of new cadets coming up to take their place. The "our time will come" speech is all very rousing, but based on what I have seen for the last 35 years, or what I see now, meaningless.
For most people who cannot obtain a "fast track" airline opportunity, they will need to work hard to achieve qualification in one of the experienced pilot categories. Make no mistake, some will.
My perspective is that I am sitting in the top branches of a very tall tree. It is pleasant, leafy and comfortable from this vantage point. I have grown up with this tree, and it now affords a good view of the surrounding forest. I have seen quite a few of the seasonal cycles, some great summers and a few memorably stormy winters. In recent years there have been some quite disturbing trends as Irishmen with chainsaws and bulldozers have moved into the forest. Even the tree I live in has lost a lot of fruit, as its branches have been aggresively cut off in husbandry designed to ensure survival, as the new fast growing saplings have shot up and multiplied. The reality is that the forest may well expand, but not with these lovely oaks, only with the more productive, aggressive, fast climbing trees. To survive in this forest, you need to recognise and adapt to what is happening or you will end up as compost.
I agreed with Beazle; no he's saying you need to be flexible. Not have this mentaility a Fatpl = airline opportunity. You have to be prepared to take any road there as not all are open for everybody.
S88, No I don't think for a moment that is what beazlebub is saying. I think he's telling you that if that's what you want, integrated may offer you the best chance of achieving that off the bat. What (s)he's telling you is that if you go the modular route, you may have to spend some years building time by bush flying or para dropping until you become "validated" for airline employment by your total time. In short I think you're being told " do not expect to come out and find that you have exactly the same opportunities as an integrated student. Thats not saying your opportunities will be better or worse, nut recognise they will be different. If you recognise this up front, then you have a better chance of not being crestfallen with your choice downstream- whatever choice you made.
I think Clanger pulls it together well there. Sometimes I read Bealzebubs comments and wonder if he's affiliated in any way with an integrated scheme (I'm sure that's not the case however). Tempered with Clangers response I think overall it's quite balanced.
I have to re-stress that in my view integrated training is a risk only worth taking when it's subject to prior selection for a cadet scheme (whether that's Flybe/Thomas Cook as now, Netjets of old etc). That is a subtle difference though I think in agreement with what Bealzebub says. The rich kids can take their chances, but I can't respect them and it's their sort competing against one another to pay for TR, line training and hours on line after non competitive selection that are bringing the industry down for all.
Brilliant argument and on the whole I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.
For me, firstly I had time on my hands being 21 at the moment. Secondly, the fun I had during my training (especially hour building) I wouldn't change for the world - something the integrated boys never experience (I'm sure there are some who have however but it is more regimented training). Thirdly, I always wanted more: In terms of flying, I always new that I wanted to Instruct for a good few years first because I love teaching. Therefore Integrated would have been of no benefit to me. (The Flight School I instruct at btw has just lost four instructors to BMI regional, all of whom were year above me on my degree on modular training and the Cabair integrated applicants I know with first time passes that arn't FI's gor rejected - goes to show). Finally, I have always wanted more than just flying as well: I would like to go into Management, maybe push for CEO in the future. This is why I came to Cranfield to do my MSc in ATM. If nothing else, it's nice to have a back up and not solely be qualified to fly.
Maybe you're right, not EVERYONE will make it! But, air travel is forecasted to double by 2020 (don't mention the F word, had a nightmare finishing my Forecasting module last week), and things are looking up. I'm most certainly in no rush.
In sum, I think that there are horses for courses. Both have pros and cons. Just be aware of what your getting into!
I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.
That would be a good argument if it were true that integrated training is faster. However the opposite is true. Going integrated, you go at ONE pace. Going modular, you go at YOUR pace, which CAN be much faster.
What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less.
pilotmike: I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated. Because doing the integrated one is basically a full time school. You have no time for work etc...
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated
Whether you agree or not, the fact is training modular can be done more quickly than integrated.
Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course, which proves my point. Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call.
Pilotmike I did ppl in 30 days, multi engine in 12 days, instrument rating 40 days, 100 hours time building in 14 days as i flew across the US twice and i did my cpl in 10 days. I did everything on minimums while getting a degree in aviation science.
Hey, put your 'Johnny' away, this isn't a willy-waving contest.
I simply dispute bold yet false assertions that 'integrated is faster than modular', which you support with your comment 'I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated'.
Your argument is gloriously muddled, especially given your claim to have gone from ab initio to CPL/IR in just 106 days!!
Well done! Without doubt you are the biggest Johnny, but with such bold claims you've spectacularly lost your own argument that integrated is faster - exactly proving my point...!
my point was that most people i know, do modular courses at slow pace, so that they can work at the same time. I know guys working on their PPL for a year... Then you say "Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course" and where i am right now, you are expected to do ppl-cfi in less than 8 months so i do not agree with your statement... Nor did i mean to do a willy-waving contest, but you asked what i could do "Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call" and i provided you with what you asked for.
captain.weird: No its not embry, i did my FAA written at my own pace. With that i mean that i was done with my FAA ppl checkride before i was done with the ground school etc...
Modular doesn't mean you have to work whilst training.
You both (Pilotmike & Johnny) have admirably demonstrated that 'full time' modular training can be done quicker (a lot quicker if you put your mind to it) than integrated courses. Obviously it can take a lot longer if you work at the same time.
But either way, it just goes to show the flexibility that modular training offers and being able to go as quickly or as slowly as you need.
Willy waving or not! Congratulations and well done to you both for completing your training at break neck speed!!
"What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less".
It seems as though you are arguing with everone for the sake of arguing! If you read what I wrote you would see that I agree with you and generally favour modular, although there are pros and cons for both, I was simply trying to present a balanced argument. You are right, it is considerably cheaper to do modular, and I too, like you, completed my JAA training in a similar time frame of about 10 months.
The general thesis of my argument was actually nothing to do with ROI etc. What I was saying was that for me, modualar was better because I want a lot more than just flying. But both have pros and cos!!
- surely that says it all?
