Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
I had hoped that finally a thread might highlight the shameful exploitation of students by the various FTO's and TRTO's. Many would like to hold the loan recipient soley responsible; I do not support this stance.
I hold culpable the loan recipient, Finance House, and FTO/TRTO.
To this end, I concur with WWW that if any 'toxic' training money goes unpaid by declaring 'Bankrupt' then ultimately the industry will 'clean up' its sharp practices. Sponsorships will return and TR's will be fully funded (as should be the case)!!!!!
Sadly, (or perhaps thankfully), loans would appear to be being serviced and hefty interest continues to be paid. Ironically in the absence of jobs, Flight Training Loans would appear to still be statistically a 'good loan'. I guess as they are typically secured on a 'upper middle class' parents house thus making payments is to be encouraged.
Yet still the balance of the thread is that all is well. Loans ARE being serviced and HSBC must be delighted. This being the case nothing will change. It looks like, along with our friends at CTC, the banks want their piece of the Wannabe purse.
If people kept going bankrupt then loans would become harder to gain. From that point only those with enough of capital or with security (and willing to risk the house) would be able to train as pilots. You socialists who would blame the nasty banks and training companies, who are basically doing what companies do and providing a service in exchange for profit, would surely not want the job to become the preserve of people with a chunk of spare money, would you?
FTOs can hardly be held responsible for the loans. The state of the industry, the cyclical nature and the difficulty of getting immediate flying employment is not hard to find out. Anyone who simply takes the marketing of the FTOs at face value is being naive. It is like blaming McDonalds for people being fat - of course they say that eating their burgers is fine, but it is not hard to find the information that they are not really good for you. The FTOs never guarantee employment, a few over-emphasise the help they can give but again that is just normal marketing bullsht. Everyone who persists does seem to get a flying job, so historically the FTOs are not pushing more people through than is justified by the market.
People have to start taking responsibility for their own decisions, and part of that is to research before deciding or accept the consequences of not doing so. The kid in the article seems to have this idea, and sounds like some day he might make a decent pilot. Good luck to him.
Last edited by 12Watt Tim : 6th November 2009 at 14:07.
then ultimately the industry will 'clean up' its sharp practices.
Am I, at some time in the future, going to trust my life to a man or woman sharp enough to become a pilot, but too stupid to realise that the contract with the provider STOPS at the licence end of the training?
Am I missing something? Are the likes of CTC renaging on a legal contract? Is a job part of the contract?
What are the sharp practices? Deliberately taking £65k in training and declaring bankruptcy when you don't like the deal. That's sharp practice in my book.
If I place an order for £65K worth of stock, pay in full and the seller declares himself bankrupt- where's MY sharp practice?
Hernado - I feel for you, it takes some honesty to write what you have. How many others out there are in the same boat?
If I was you declare yourself out the game (if the loan is unsecured) and have that weight off your sholders, thats what bankruptcy is there for.
To the wanabee army - read his post carefully, take it slow, dont jump into integrated with a monster loan. Whats the rush? where do you think the job is going to come from? Supply and demand, if you wait, and others wait, then these FTOs will have to drop their prices, saving you even more money in the long term.
If any wannabe parents read this - DON'T FUND YOUR LOVED ONES!! MAKE THEM WAIT!!!
I am dragging out my ATPL theory course to use up all 18 months of allowed time frame. Then I am not even considering going near a CPL course for at least 6-12 months. Keep saving, keep working there is no rush to spend this money, spending 70k to join the dole queue? Must be mental, actually mental.
DONT LISTEN TO FTO'S!!! They want your/parent/bank money!
Just to add to UAV here are what I believe are hard cold facts:
Airlines are not going to start employing Pilots again until late 2010 (at the earliest)
When they do start employing the first they're going to employ are all the people with thousands of hours made redundant by the likes of Zoom.
Late 2011 they may get round to employing Pilots who are lower down the scale (in terms of flight hours experience) such as the charter pilots and experienced instructors.
Then in 2012 they will get onto the thousands of people with CPL/IR.
Realistically it is going to be 2013 before the newbie CPL/IR has a decent chance of getting a job.
Do Not start training before 2011 - it will be a complete waste of time and money until then.
Do you actually have any idea of the complexity of this industry? That is such an over-simplification that is effectively meaningless.
OK so this is really not a good time at all for the industry. However you basically seem to be assuming that there are only three segments for pilots to work in, 'charter' (I assume you mean GA, rather than the holiday charters like Monarch, who have been known to take pilots from BA), instructing and 'airlines', and that movement is always one way, and the most experienced pilot always gets preference for the job.
There are actually far more distinct sectors than that (GA can be split into at least four distinct markets, depending on how you split, and the airlines can also be split into at least four markets, each of which has different recruitment needs, and each airline in which will have a different recruitment strategy), recruitment is not so simple and the priority does not always go to experience. There is a lot more to consider, but the point is that it is really not as simple (or 'fair' in some cases) as you suggest. A classic example is that I had a CV from a guy with 6000 hours. However he did not even get an interview as I had more suitable candidates who had sufficient if far fewer hours.
There will be recruitment of inexperienced pilots to some jobs well before 2012, probably some next year. It is unlikely to be widespread, and your conclusion that it is unwise to invest in training now might well be supportable (and on balance I would suggest most people wait). However it is not supported by that assessment.
Just take it as a given when you're shopping for flight training, that anybody in this business who "guarantees" anything whatsoever in their dealings with student pilots and prospective jobs / interviews / hours post graduation, is a thieving, grasping, moral bankrupt who is blatantly lying through their teeth. Coming up 20 years in the business now and I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever to the contrary, and that's in the good hiring times let alone the bad.
In fact if my kids ever wish to follow in dad's footsteps, one of my main criteria for exclusion of flying schools will be anyone who uses the word "guarantee" in any of their sales literature, especially if it is associated with large glossy brochures and pictures of sparkly eyed happy young top guns sitting in flight decks of big airliners. And I will be doubly suspicious, if said sales pitch is being presented by some slick talking posh in a suit, via a powerpoint presentation. And I will turn and run a country mile, if that individual works for an organization that has "aptitude tests" for admission, makes their PPLs wear uniforms and epaulettes and charges twice the going rate of traditional aero club training for the privilege.
Honestly guys - it's a lottery at the best of times getting into this business but going integrated at the moment is an even bigger gamble simply because you appeal to a much smaller employer pool and virtually all of them are not hiring. Anyone who's dumb enough to spend 65 grand in the current employment environment was going to lose their money one way or the other, because they were STUPID, and didnt do their research properly before they bet the house.
Don't be dazzled by the bright lights and bullsh!t of the big training organizations, and all the bogus work-for-free and buy-a-type-rating frills and schemes and cons that every single one of them seems to perpetrate these days. There's no need to spend even half that kind of money on flight training, and a million ways to minimize the risk of being unemployed at the end, provided you're realistic about your first job and prepared to go anywhere and fly anything.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler : 8th November 2009 at 15:03.
I really feel bad for all those who spend a lot of money for their training, having debts and having no prospects at all.
I'm also ashamed that these FTO's are still selling a dream but as you all know they are still companies. Even if there is no oil left in the world they still would sell it and some people are still naive enough to believe them.
As an authority you can not prevent companies from doing their business. As a authority you can not prevent youngsters taking the decision to go to these 'crooks'. But what you can do as an authority is put a numerus clausus. Not on national but on european scale.
Every country writes 50 (or other number) atpl theoretical exams a year. And every year the authorities can review this number BUT (and this is very important) Ab initios have to be informed that their chance to participate their theoretical exam is very slim. Even then, after being informed) they can still choose to go for it or to drop the idea. I can assure you the number of applicants will drop, FTO's can't blame that can't do business and the market will regulate.
The almost complete abrogation of any sort of self responsibility on these forums is truly breathtaking. It is not the fault of flying schools or sales literature, or pictures or promotions. It is your fault as an individual. Purely and simply your fault!
Flying schools have as much right as car salesrooms or supermarkets to exist. They can dress up their products, and package and promote them how ever they like to make them as enticing and appealing as possible to the customers who might walk through their doors.
If you believe that parting with tens of thousands of pounds will not only provide you with a hundred hours or so of flight and ground training, but will also have commercial airlines swooning at your feet, then enjoy the dream, because clearly that is what you are paying for.
It has always been, is now, and always will be a case of caveat emptor or let the buyer beware. Research what you are buying, before you part with the cash, particularly where large sums of cash are involved. Despite protestations to the contrary, very few people who contribute to these forums appear to do anything like that. They only want to hear what they already choose to believe. Any cautionary advice is labelled as "negativity" or some other buzz word. These people want to be seduced and are ripe for it.
Flying schools are busineses just like many others. They sell a product. You want to buy it, good! They are happy to dress up their marketing with pretty pictures of what that product may do for your life, but that isn't what they are actually contracting to sell you in most cases. So do your research, pay your money and take your choice if that is what you decide. If your own particular dreams and fantasies don't turn out like the ones in the brochures, too bad.
Flying schools are in business to sell you a range of products. As a buyer you have a right to expect them to deliver that product. They cannot sell you a dream, because that only exists in your head. Marketing is a facilitation tool that uses pretty pictures, soft lights, nice smells and the exploitation of irrationality to place an often mundane product in an attractive wrapper. If you are over 18 and are unable to recognise this concept, then you are not yet ready for this career and many others besides.
... to a very large extent you're talking good sense bealzebub but certain flying training establishments have perfected the art of the hard sell to an extent that puts time-share sales tactics to shame. And a large number of their customers are extremely young and naive.
- Standing up in front of a room full of punters and talking with a straight face about the huge "impending pilot shortage" ...
- Filling your marketing literature with claims and implications that your company has specific links to a certain airline, when the truth is that you last sent cadets to that airline over a decade ago ...
- Having a mysterious and wonderful "hold pool" for graduates that never seems to get any smaller - which also has the benefit of stopping people from complaining they were ripped off, for years after they've finished training, because they are still terrified of getting removed from the "hold pool" if they rock the boat ...
The list is as long as your arm, and it gets longer with every new school and every new scam that comes along.
Yes of course the buyer should beware and it's their own stupid fault if they get burned at the end of the day. But, I will also never stop posting things like this on PPRuNe, because this is one of the first stops smart people make when they're actually trying to do some research into the minefield of modern day pilot training and trying to separate the fact from the fiction.
I've just about finally learned that the Wannabe Zombie Army is now so big, so vast, that even using the enormous brass trumpet that is PPRuNe Wannabes forum is but a feeble fart in a gale to them.
I sense that this was not the case in the years following Sept 11. My theory is that the vast, chasm spanning size of the credit bubble 2005 - 2007 'created' an enormous amount of 'wealth'. The enormous pool of money is what continues to power the army long after it should have grown weary and fallen from the battlefield. Until it all dries up the schools will continue to churn out more zombies at a relentless pace.
Argument, reason, advice, history - nothing works. The only force that can stop them is the bouncing of the cheque.
Keeps my old pals still in the instructing world in employment so there is a silver lining of sorts.
Wanabe - 'I know everyone comming out of Oxford is getting work - I was only talking to them a few days ago'
That's right - everyone. A quick look at the published employment statistics on the OAA website shows that in 2009 a total of 106 graduates have found employment flying within an airline environment. Of that 106 note that 26 were 'sponsored' (NJE, FlyBe & TCX) and of that 26, 6 are currently on gardening leave for the winter season and 16 were invited to participate in a form of voluntary redundancy whilst still training.
61% of the total paid an additional 30K for a 737NG type rating to an organisation who have cleverly converted their TRTO into a profit centre during an economic downturn.
Importantly for the consumer the schools don't publish their student loads for the year, however it's not difficult to estimate the numbers: I believe OAA runs a course a month and works to an average class size of 24 students per course although I am lead to believe the numbers have been higher for each class in 2008/9, but ignoring that it works out at a total of 288 students (conservatively) of which a small number may not complete the course for a variety of reasons. You can manipulate statistics more or less how you want but the basic maths shows that for this year something in the order of 40% of graduates have managed to find employment of which 10% enjoyed 'sponsorship' in one form or another (meaning they were pre-selected and effectively had the promise of a job at the end of it). Don't neglect the fact that to graduate in 2009 you would have commenced training during '08 or earlier.
Based on what I've seen of the industry this year 40% sounds extremely good going but if the marketing department is suggesting to potential customers that everyone is getting work I would advise to exercise caution as that statement seems a little wide of the mark .
Seriously, the first guy started his training two years ago, back then times were looking good, and surely they all aren't involved in the business world that much to predict a downturn coming?!
I couldn't have told until the downturn actually started. Back in 2007 a lot of wannabes were still getting jobs at airlines more or less quickly, so I don't blame the new starters for thinking it's gonna keep up until 2009.
I remember (via PPRuNe...fledgling at the time) that we all went through the training/employment environment at similar times...about 1997/98?
I also remember that we were desperate for that first job. I can't retrieve the posts, but have a strong recall of talk of getting that first job at any cost? Although I do remember us all saying that the (then fledgling as well) CTC was wrong.
Now we are where we are (long haul, speaking for myself) and you two with considerable/command experience, is it not too easy to be critical of wannabees who desperately want to fly? And who are prepared to ignore market conditions/common sense to do so? Did we not do the same? The market then was pretty bad, but (speaking personally) I selectively ignored the warnings, and went for it anyway, regardless. Thinking that an £80,000 debt was 'worth the risk' despite dire warnings to the contrary.
For the record, I was neither 'rich' nor did 'daddy' pay for my training. I worked hard and sacrificed my London flat, my girlfriend (and my sanity!) to pay for my training. £5 at the end of the week for a couple of beers was a big deal during training!
What I am trying to say, is that that, no matter what you or I (or BALPA) say, there will always be people who are prepared to pay for their 'dream' at any cost.
Do I think it is right? No.
Would I advise anyone to do it now? No!
Does it undermine our careers? Yes!
But we cannot, hand on heart, be critical of anyone who wishes to give it a go. It is airlines/management in the Ryanair model, and certain training organisations that should shoulder the blame. Organisations such as CTC/OATS/Ryanair are (and in my view as an ex student, always have been) an exploitative business model. But they are simply taking advantage of the desires that we all have had. So really....are they just taking advantage of good business opportunities, or are they exploiting vulnerable students?
Our industry is at a crossroads...and there is no doubt it is being seriously undermined by 'desperate' new entrants..but you and I were the same 10 years ago, and none of us can deny that we would not have taken any measures for that first job (type rating excepted)!
Where am I going with this? I'm not sure! But the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of 'negative press' about the direction in which our career is headed, and much of this vitriol is directed at the 'wannabees' and 'will pay to fly' newcomers.
All I'm saying is that I can't deny (and honestly...neither can anyone in the industry) that I would not have done the same to land my first flying job...it has always been thus in aviation, and there is nothing that we can do about that.
So lets give the 'dreamers' and the 'wannabes' and the 'will pay to fly' guys/gals a break. They are only harbouring the same dreams that we did not so long ago.
All we can do is try our best to prevent conditions being eroded at the 'top end' so that there is a career worth persuing by the time they get there!
Heard the other day that CTC have approached former students (now experienced F/Os) to join their "recruiting" campaign at University open days.
They must be getting desperate.
Also interesting that they chose former students who are lucky enough to be in full-time employment, and not the flexiwing cadets layed off at the end of October!
The F/O I was flying with and his friends who were called declined their offer.
Its interesting how students blame FTOs for overcharging them to get a position with low hour ryan air scheme or other like outfits(thats if they get lucky)and on the other hand fos with about 2-3000 hours on jet blaming the same students to block their possibility of a position with these airlines.
I know many well qualified fos with no interviews lined up since the last 3 months and it doesnt look good for the next future either...
I suggest to wannabes to wait before spending your money/family money for the industry to get back on its feet.
Hopefully their pool of students will dry out,the prices of type ratings will go down,the qualified fos will get the jobs and then when the time comes you will get a higher chance to land your dream job with less $$$$.
The truth is, IMO, the Zombie Army march will only stop when the money is no longer available.
Sadly, this thread only serves to demonstrate that the loans are being serviced. ( Probably to be encouraged as they are guaranteed by Dads house in the Home Counties. )
Objectively, Student Pilots are a very good loan.
Whilst there is credit the FTO's tills will continue to ring loud and often.
in a suit, via a powerpoint presentation. And I will turn and run a country mile, if that individual works for an organization that has "aptitude tests" for admission, makes their PPLs wear uniforms and epaulettes and charges twice the going rate of traditional aero club training for the privilege.
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