Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Hi guys, I've spent arround 40k for a frozen ATPL. I had first series passes all the way and really good scores on the ATPL exams and living on unemployment money at the moment (Just lost my Job), trust me it feels really bad...
Even though I'm not in debt as I inherited most of the money and saved up the rest, it still is a very bad feeling, having spent so much money and knowing you haven't earned it yourself.... And the worst part is, most shemes at the moment require to put in even more money (CTC, Ryan or an FI Course) and all are with very little chance of succeeding... But I've gone to far to give up now....
Last edited by Ronand : 5th November 2009 at 14:11.
The Beak, for a second then I thought you said whorehouses!!! Well the loan does need to be paid by whatever means! Check out the gold bars on this one...............!
It must be because I am now so used to hearing CTC, pimps, exploitation, etc etc all in the same sentence!
Farquhar is obviously disappointed with the airlines' totally hands-off attitude: "I'd like to see more airlines consider employing newly graduated pilots in other roles during the downturn. In the long term it's an opportunity to transfer a greater appreciation of other team member roles into the flightdeck of the future, promoting a synergistic workplace through greater appreciation of each others roles.
Well he's got a talent for corporate yuckspeak, 'synergistic' Airlines always did employ newly graduated pilots in other roles. But he seems to think pilots should be favoured in some way. But the reality is that airlines are not hiring anyone at the moment. That attitude harks back to the old days of flag carriers. People need to realise that airlines are businesses not employment schemes for dreamers like us.
This too is an example of that attitude.
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He is politely echoing the more trenchantly expressed views of the training chief at Oxford Aviation Academy, Anthony Petteford, who is evangelistic about the need for airlines to recognise the fact that many of them are withdrawing totally from responsibility for the provision of skilled pilots in the future. As a result, he says, they are fishing in a pond that contains only those who are wealthy themselves or come from wealthy families, and he warns that this will not sustain a growing industry.
On the face of it, that seems a reasonable view until you remember that OAA are heavily into very expensive integrated courses. The only people who can afford them are wealthy. In fact it's a rather arrogant assumption that the only pilots worth considering come from the rather smaller 'integrated' pond.
Most pilots are not wealthy and use the much cheaper modular route to train, a pond he chooses to ignore. Read between the lines and Petteford is calling for more sponsorship, naturally his company would be the main beneficiary of that. It isn't going to happen. There is no need for it. There never will be a shortage of self sponsored pilots. There never has been and never will.
If Ryanair and Easyjet et al have only taught us one thing: It's that the airline business is just that; a business. No more, no less. The old style inefficent, unprofitable, overstaffed dinosaurs are either dying out or already extinct.
But in any case and I'm sure WWW will agree, none of this is new. It's only in recent years that this attitude prevailed:
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A mere two years ago when I joined up, at the end of their courses CTC graduates were talking about which airline and base they'd like, not which employment centre they were going to next Monday."
The expectation of an immediate flying job, let alone an airline job is a relatively recent phenomenon. In previous years, you qualified then applied and waited and sometimes waited and waited. Some went the Instructor route. Others went back to their old jobs. Sometimes years passed until the airlines begain recruiting. It's just business as usual again.
There are few or no jobs for low time, inexperienced graduates again. The little bios in the article will be familiar to those of us of a certain age. Most have chosen to get on with it, albeit puzzled by apparent unfairness of it all. Only one of them seems to think that there should be some form of graduate scheme with government help. God bless his innocence.
Most will get their 'dream job' eventually at which point they discover that perhaps dreams and reality conflict a bit.
I say "Hi Dad, couple of friends of friends (24-28 "1-2 years newly qualified self-funded" are flying Lears and G5s on about £50k a year and working 8 days a month. They are hoping around companies, but flying for millionaires who have more cash then sense and often pocket £300 tips, stay in 5 star hotels and get to eat out in nice restaurants..." They drive £25k bmws and have just bought £300k houses.
Dad says to me, "so you still want to be a pilot son?"
I say "well, yeah I miss my gliding and SEP flying. I wouldn't mind! But I don't have £70k or even £1k. I'm in London in marketing and online, on reasonable money and on track for a great career with 6 figure income potential if I can get into a big FMCG company..."
Dad says "well, what about abroad?"
I say "still expensive surely"
Dad says "Well I paid £5 an hour when I was flying SEP in South Africa 40 years ago and I was a Pursur on a cruise liner"
I say "yes that was 40 years ago!"
Dad says "Yes and at the time it was £40 an hour in rip-off cold jungle of the UK"
I say "mmmm, food for thought!"
So, how much is it if I want to learn to learn to fly commercial abroad and where is the cheapest place to learn? I would love to be a private jet pilot and feel like I am missing out when I hear my friend's friend epic stories of jetting around the world in his Lear.
I would love to be a private jet pilot and feel like I am missing out when I hear my friend's friend epic stories of jetting around the world in his Lear.
Ha Ha very good but the thing about trolling though is to make it more plausible, 'Tim'. You should consider writing fiction, you could make enough money to pay for the training, maybe even your own 'private jet'.
I don't think these CTC wannabe pups really care about their loans etc as most of them will have got the cash from the bank of mum and dad or at least the olds will be paying the loan repayments anyway. I am just surprised that they have not decided to get mum and dad to fund their Ryanair SSTR.
I wish people would refrain from talking about things of which they obviously have sod all knowledge. I know of no cadet who got the money for the CTC course through their parents. Everyone up until ~CP55 received an unsecured loan for the full amount of the course fees from a bank. Therefore, for the majority of people, the loan, and subsequent bankruptcy is going to be on them and them alone.
How does it feel to spend £60K, and not have a job?
Well, I'll tell you in the hope that others reading this dont fall into the same trap.
So, about me. Late twenties, masters degree in business, 3 years as business professional, fATPL, now with instructor rating.
I am now a proud van driver.
The job hunt has been unfruitful for the last six months, so I bit the bullet, borrowed some more money and did an instructors rating. Looking for work as an instructor is even harder, as I fear I have missed the boat for an instructing job, as they all seem to be filled, with flying schools and clubs going down the pan regulalry.
It feels terrible, it honestly was the worst thing I ever did. I left a well paying job with great benefits and travel, for the lights and the glamour etc . I had savings before, and was comfortable, now I am constantly stressed, more than ive ever been. I borrowed money from family freinds and the bank.
My friends seem to slowly dissapear as I no longer socialise due working all hours of the day. If manage to go out, Im depressed, grumpy and wont get into a round, because I cant afford to buy a round.
As driving work gets quiet (self employed) I sit here look for jobs, try to keep busy with (parents) housework, exercise and stuff, but it dosent take away the depression at the back of my mind.
Why dont I go back to my old career? I hear you say. Well simply because the whole of my old department was made redundant recently after I left. Everywhere else I go they arent interested because they think I'll leg it when times get good, or I find an instructor postition.
So the big 3 0 is looming as is the ir renewal, the sep renewal, oh and add in a medical renewal. How about the currency! Whats and NDB again??
One month hard full time work, just covers a loan installment, I earn one quarter of what I used to.
I know many of the people I studied with are in the same boat as I. Would I do it again? Well, no. Not without a job that paid well. I know money isnt everything, but as I approach thirty I've nothing to show for it.
Nothing as I forsee will materialise for the next five years.
In five years time im going to be an old rusty peice of wood, with lets say 1000 more per year people more recently qualified than i am. What chance do I stand? People paying for type and line training. Finished.
So champion ppruners, I think a lot of people are scared or in denial about being in the same situation as I am in. One or two hours instructing will come up soon, but it is no means for an income, but will help me remember what a horizon is.
That is my story, and I continue to work untill my joints ache, I've a night shift tonight. It may not be flying, but its money, and is stopping my familles roof being taken away. This my friends is the price to pay for dream.
I somtimes google search somthing on PPRuNe, and a post comes of from 2001, or another time of greif/recession etc. I hope with the graciousness of God that I will oneday look back on this and smile contently to know I did the best I could and worked as hard as I could to keep going, for that dream job.
From Kung fu Panda:
'Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift, that's why we call it the present.'
Thanks Hernando. I feel very sorry for you. I have heard the same story many many times. The only consolation I can offer is that I've also heard many tales where, in the end and against expectations, the guy ends up with the job.
Wannabeism can seriously effect your life and the lives of those around you.
Good, then I am very happy to take it all back. If you do some club flying then there is no reason you shouldn't make a decent instructor.
My experience was in taking over training of students who had been taught by an instructor who had been integrated straight to FI(R) then teaching. It was clear from the problems they had that the instructor did not know what PPL flying was, had no natural sense for the progress of the course or for the end result required. That is not something that can be taught, but is learned by being around a club and by flying in that environment.
By the way I would probably make a bad instructor too if I went straight back to it now. I'm too used to commercial aviation, line training of guys who could be expected to know the mechanics and to show rapid progress in the operations and procedures side I am teaching. I will have to do a bit of club flying before I try!
Its the only sensible thing to do. Owe £75k+ and scratching a living whilst living with parents and owning nothing = go bankrupt. You'd be certifiable not to.
Really. Certifiable.
Certifiable as opposed to say, embarking on a career with no jobs, and at a cost you can't afford? Sort of like banking really: press ahead with a foolish plan and let someone else pay. Simples.
The only thing that the cadets in the article have going for them is the fact that their debts are unsecured. If they declare themselves bankrupt, their debt will be wiped out and at the absolute most, the bankruptcy period will end within one year. Their credit ratings will be screwed for another five years. However, it's still a good opportunity for them to dump a debt, that with interest would amount to £100,000ish. In a couple of years they will probably get good jobs (aviation or otherwise) and not have to pay any of the debt back. Expect CTC cadets to go bankrupt in mass when the penny drops.
As for CTC themselves, where did they go wrong? Once upon a time they had a nice little thing going, supplying a few cadets to the airlines. Then, they decided to expand their training operation and invest in expensive new assets and vastly increase the numbers of students coming through the system. It was always going to end in tears. Now, they have to recruit naive and foolish cadets just to pay for all those expensive DA42 trainers that they purchased. Where will it all end?
i was under the impression (in the UK at least) that no bank or financial institution was allowed to give an unsecured loan for more than £25,000 so i am guessing that these loans are secured against something!!! banks will not lend that sort of money without equity , collateral or a seriously good wage coming in or a signature of someone ie. a family member/parent countersigning the loan.
i was under the impression (in the UK at least) that no bank or financial institution was allowed to give an unsecured loan for more than £25,000 so i am guessing that these loans are secured against something!!! banks will not lend that sort of money without equity , collateral or a seriously good wage coming in or a signature of someone ie. a family member/parent countersigning the loan.
Under the old system (which was withdrawn about a year ago) HSBC lent a total of £75000 unsecured to all those accepted onto the Wings Scheme.
chester, in the summer of 04 I walked into hsbc hythe branch having just passed ctc selection. Half an hour later I walked out with an unsecured loan for 65000 pounds. It was that simple, no security required at all. That was then...
And that. Is all. You need to know. About the credit crunch/banking crisis.
Go bankrupt. All of you in the hold pools and I know that many of you read here. Go bankrupt. Stop paying your massive loans. Go bankrupt.
GO BANKRUPT.
It will be good for you and ultimately good for your profession.
The schools are desperate for you not to escape via the bankruptcy escape tunnel. If you all rabbit off down it then its going to be hard to sign up new rabbits for a dose of £65,000 mixi...
I know of two friends that did go bankrupt many years ago after completing their training as this situation is nothing new albeit in much larger numbers now.
All I can say is I wish I had done it too. It affected their lives not one bit. And it was much harder to go bankrupt then too. Ironically, if I remember it cost a few hundred quid to go and they didn't even have that so had to borrow it!
After 3 years the debt was written off and behind them. Bank accounts, mortgage, no problem and both now in flying jobs.
If your concience allows it seems the ideal solution to me.
Are you serious? The airlines are not hiring, so are the private jet operators!
Come on, like you have a choice when we are not in a recession, let alone in a recession!
You remind me of some people of my class, willing to throw 70k€ at a flight school and have the courage to say for which airline they'd prefer to fly. Like they'll have a choice.
Location: Just a bit lower than the point where the falling angel meets the rising ape
Posts: 223
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If your concience allows it seems the ideal solution to me.
I'm pretty much sorted now with the idea that where money is concerned, having a conscience is the last thing that matters. Look at all our betters in government and the financial world doing just swimmingly without one!
Sadly my wife and my current mortgage/ house might not appreciate me playing fast and loose. A game for those with no other commitments, I think.
Airlines always did employ newly graduated pilots in other roles. But he seems to think pilots should be favoured in some way. But the reality is that airlines are not hiring anyone at the moment. That attitude harks back to the old days of flag carriers. People need to realise that airlines are businesses not employment schemes for dreamers like us.
very good but the thing about trolling though is to make it more plausible, 'Tim'. You should consider writing fiction, you could make enough money to pay for the training, maybe even your own 'private jet'.
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