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Starting ATPL modular: Advice needed

Old 4th Aug 2009, 14:32
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Starting ATPL modular: Advice needed

Hi Guys,

I would like to request some advice off you if i may, but first some background.

I知 a 26 yr old graduate working within a professional services firm but i have decided to jack it all in to achieve my dream of becoming an airline pilot. And yes i have read all about deferring my training for a few years but i genuinely believe that in two years time, naively or not that the market will be in much better position.

Despite looking into the big boys, CTC, OAT , FTE etc, i cannot justify the additional cost of going Integrated so i知 looking towards undertaking my studies on a modular basis at BCFT in Bournemouth. However, i am very keen on introducing an element of time abroad into my programme for both the weather and life experience benefit.

My questions are:

I would like to commence my PPL abroad (where the weather is good) so mainly the US/Spain etc, but i知 confused with whether i need to undertake a JAA element of study and therefore can someone clarify this for me? I want to minimise any conversion expenses.

Or alternatively, would it be better to get used to crowded UK airspace first (to set the groundwork) and hence to my PPL in the UK. Hence, deferring some time abroad until the hour building phase of the course.


Does the argument of the airlines requiring consistent training from one FTO really stack up in the real world? This is what BCFT have hinted and i can see logic to this argument.

Like i say, i have the money to complete the full modular course at BCFT but i would like to have some time abroad for life experience more than anything. If it痴 worth saying, my ambition is to work within the airline/business jet sector, so if any advice can be tailored towards that, it would be very much appreciated!!

Thank you in advance for any comments/feedback given!

Regards

Concorde14

Ps excuse the essay!!
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Old 4th Aug 2009, 17:21
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Hi

Doing your PPL abroad is a good idea and you should have a great time doing it.

No need to get a JAA PPL, all you need is an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL ground school (FAA would be fine).

Doesnt make any difference where you do your training, BCFT do tell people that the airlines want you to do all the training at one school, this is just sales talk. FlyBE is the only airline that has said they want modular students to complete their CPL / ME IR at one school, they dont care where you do your PPL, ground school, MCC.

Other airlines dont care where or how you do your training, except BA who only take cadets from intergrated schools.

There are some great threads on here, have a read of them. Best place to get information is from the people working in the airlines, the worst place to get information are flight schools! they only want your cash and will tell you what you want to hear.

Good luck with your training, and I hope things pick up when you qualify.
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Old 4th Aug 2009, 20:37
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This is only MY experience so may not apply to others and take from it what you will:

PPL in UK
All hour building in USA ( not so cheap now with Exchange rate so be careful to consider flights, accom, food etc for staying overseas before dismissing UK)
ATPL ground school BCFT
Multi CPL/IR PAT Bournemouth (As odd an experience as it was excellent thoroughly recommend them if you are after first time passes)
MCC European ( Very satisfied)
I'm one of the lucky ones and now have a 737 job and received 2 other job offers all in the last 3 months.
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 07:56
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There are US schools which offer JAA PPL training, so in theory at least, you could qualify over there and be good to go with your hours building as soon as you got back to the UK. However, don't underestimate the differences between JAA and FAA lands - a PA28 flies the same wherever it is, but there are significant differences in RT, airspace and weather, and personally I believe it's better to lay the foundations of your future career in the place you actually plan to fly commercially.

It might be better to explore the US (or wherever) once you have the PPL, and are free to build hours and experience as you see fit. Hint - don't just fly in straight lines from one sleepy airfield to another - push yourself as much as possible during hours building - print off a copy of the CAA's CPL skill test notes and aim to fly to that level of accuracy. It's a lot cheaper than learning to do it during the CPL!

Flybe does indeed prefer applicants to do the CPL, ME & IR at one school, which gives them a clear training record and allows the recruitment people to pick the phone up and say "what do you think of so and so?" They are not bothered about the PPL or ATPL writtens (apart from the results!). I can't think of any other airlines with this policy off the top of my head - excluding BA, who as davey147 said, only take low-hours pilots from integrated schools. When they are recruiting, that is, which won't be anytime soon.

One final point - I think your timescale (2 years) is a bit optimistic. The recession is far from over, particularly in aviation, and it will be a long time before anyone starts recruiting significant numbers of 200hr CPLs. Flybe are a major player in that market, and we have quite a few cadet pilots working as cabin crew already. That situation will not change until the majors start recruiting experienced pilots, and even then it will take some time to filter down to the newly qualified guys. I'd say 3 years is looking more likely, but at least you'll give yourself that flexibility by going modular.

Best of luck.
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 08:20
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2012 to finish, I've seen that before. Fits in with my plans at the moment.
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 10:43
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Im also training towards my ATPL (modular route), I'm just about to take my PPL skills test at Old Sarum Flying School, who I would highly recommmend. New aircraft, great airfield and good group of instructors. Also for under 6k I dont think there is anyone cheaper in the UK!

I then plan to do some hour building in the UK and some abroad, for the same reasons as have been mentioned. To gain valuable flying experience in foreign countries and to also enjoy my journey through training rather than focusing purely on the final goal. I have thoroughly enjoyed my training so far, partly because I am not rushing through it.

After doing my PPL training in the UK and speaking with people who have done PPL training abroad and in the UK, I am glad i have done my initial training here. I feel very confident in the skills I have learnt and am looking forward to flying to new airfields during hour building...not so much the ATPL theory which I will be doing along side the hour building!!
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 10:45
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Nedul1a if you dont mind me asking how much did your training cost and time scale to complete? im looking to do it almost exactly the same except hour building will prob be in spain.
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 11:24
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The whole thing from start to finish including every possible cost down to hire cars, hotels and CRP5, charts and kneeboard came in at GBP47k

I started in July 07 and finished in May 09 although I did take several months out in between to continue with my business so I would imagine you could reduce that by 6 months plus
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 12:06
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The Idea of doing all professional training in one place is the prefered route with the UK CAA, who suggest no more than 2 training schools.
The BCFT was giving it to you straight.

As for the Job market, It near to non existent and will remain that way into the 3rd quarter of 2010.
All this is dependent upon how many companies lay off or go Bust this winter.

The Integrated providers are turning out an average of 25 pilots per month and recruitment whilst down, will see little change in the output in the coming year.

My advice for what its worth is :-
Take a maximum of 2 training establishments. (IR in UK)
Keep working and spread your training over the next 2 years.
Choose overseas training associated with a reputable UK company.(JAA Standards)
Keep a close eye upon exchange rates.
Keep a close eye on job losses.
Plan for a possible Self sponsored type rating.
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 12:58
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Ok, so if you want to please the UK CAA, then go ahead and do everything in your island.

Again, if you believe that you will find an airline that does not fly to Europe nor Ireland nor elsewhere, and this is what you want, go and do all your training in the UK.

Very strange advice indeed. Happy to see that you want to go abroad for part of your training for the experience, so take the advice of people who have been outside the UK and dealt with other CAAs and get yourself an ICAO PPL.

You write that it is not only a money issue, so if you spend the same money on an FAA PPL, you will see that it is a good licence to have: it does not expire, includes the night qualification, and s yours to keep, while you loose your JAR PPL upon gaining the JAR CPL. A lot quicker too due to weather and other issues.

good luck! IP
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 13:29
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while you loose your JAR PPL upon gaining the JAR CPL

Why is that a problem? A JAR CPL gives PPL privileges.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 21:54
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Hi Guys thank you for all the comprehensive advice given, certainly food for thought!

I have a few further questions if i may:

- Excuse my naivety but what is an ICAO PPL? How does this compare to a JAA PPL? What if any are the pros and cons? I am after all after a fATPL and am ultimately aiming for airline employment one day!!

- Is it possible to hour-build in the US? Or are you limited bcause of the FAA regime?

Essentially, i'm trying to determine whether i get my 'abroad fix' at PPL stage or at hour build stage? Head is saying at hour build stage, but i don't mind admitting there is certainly a temptation to escape the UK winter!!

Thanks again everyone.

Regards

Concorde14
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Old 5th Aug 2009, 22:10
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I did my PPL in florida and i really enjoyed the experience...lots a nice weather, different flying experience, new people to meet, well recommend it. They should include your night qualification also wihtout extra cost. and a nice holiday.

However, coming back to the UK.....I feel that hour building, CPL should be done in the UK, Different air traffic, airspaces, experience on dealing with the weather here is a distinct advantage.


I would say experience foreign climate, but always come back to UK to complete your course...the experience is invaluable
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Old 6th Aug 2009, 08:01
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In very simple terms, each ICAO member state issues licences (be they PPL, CPL, ATPL) under its own national regulations. Within Europe, countries that are JAA (or EASA) members issue licences that are also JAA / EASA compliant. In other words, a PPL issued here will be a UK / JAA licence, while one issued in Florida will be issued by the US FAA (and will follow a slightly different training syllabus). To complicate things slightly, some schools in America also offer JAA PPL training, meaning that you would follow the JAA training syllabus and be issued with a JAA PPL at the end of it. Confused?

To build hours in the US you would need some sort of FAA licence, but it always used to be possible to get a 'pilot certificate' issued simply by presenting your UK licence. The situation has not changed to my knowledge, but you'd be well advised to check the latest position with the CAA and the FAA before committing yourself. It should, however, be perfectly possibly to convert a UK PPL and build hours in the US.

Comparing the pros and cons of the two systems is a great way of starting a willy-measuring contest, but rest assured there are significant differences. Having trained in the UK, with JAA and FAA PPLs and some hours-building in Florida, I would say that the US system is much more practical and common-sense based, while the CAA is more conservative, theory-based and wedded to the map and stopwatch (which most people bin as soon as they discover GPS). Regardless, to focus on your objective - airline employment in the UK, you will at some stage need to pass UK CPL and IR skills tests. Others will have different opinions, but I would suggest that the best foundation for that is a UK issued PPL. I do know people who completed all their training outside the UK and are now flying airliners, but I've also met people with JAA PPLs issued in Florida, who really struggled with flying to CPL standard. Essentially they were having to learn techniques from scratch, which is very expensive with a commercial instructor sat next to you.

I can well understand the temptation to escape the UK weather, but familiarity with our climate is all useful experience. (My CPL skills test was in poor visibility with a low cloudbase - perfectly legal, but not ideal when you're used to gin-clear conditions). I was surprised by just how steep the learning curve was with both the CPL and IR, and you really do want as many things on your side as possible. I'd suggest that maximum exposure to UK airspace, geography, RT and weather - before you start spending 」300+ an hour - is a good idea.
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Old 6th Aug 2009, 10:37
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Guys, again very much appreciate the level of detail given in your comments, this is proving invaluable.

Linked to prior comments regarding maximising exposure to UK weather, RT et al, is there a risk that my flying would perhaps not be as polished if i undertook the following:

Initial training at BCFT to include PPL, ATPL ground school and hour building.

& then:

CPL/IR/MCC at FTE Jerez.

As you know my aim is to experience living abroad but i worry the 'perfect' weather in Jerez may make the CPL/IR not as challenging.

Does anyone have any comments about following the Modular route at FTE? Rest assured, I will do a search function as well!!

As always any comments feedback would be appreciated. Although i have a feeling this is one where i just need to roll with and see how i get on at BCFT initially.

Thanks guys

Concorde14
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Old 26th Mar 2014, 15:28
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5 years later...

Hi Concorde 14,

If I may ask you, could you tell me what did you finaly decide? Are you an arline pilot 5 years later?

If yes, which school did you finaly choose to make your ATPL theory?

As I'm currently doing my PPL, I'm looking for a school in UK and hesitating between all of them!

Thanks to let me know.

Bertrand
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