The impact of the MPL on recruitment
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The impact of the MPL on recruitment
Flybe have adopted the MPL as an additional training channel (albeit probably as a trial) and have plans to open their own training academy by summer 2010 (according to FTN).
If successful, how long until the MPL becomes the standard training route across the majority of airlines?
What implications does this have for current and future wannabes?
Will preference in terms of recruitment be:
1. MPL
2. Integrated non-MPL (that's if all current Integrated schools don't partner with airlines to offer the MPL.
3. Modular (if even considered at all)
I for one, with plans to obtain my CPL/IR by 2012 (modular), am concerned that doors will be slammed shut in my face with a big sign stating MPL only.
What do you think?
If successful, how long until the MPL becomes the standard training route across the majority of airlines?
What implications does this have for current and future wannabes?
Will preference in terms of recruitment be:
1. MPL
2. Integrated non-MPL (that's if all current Integrated schools don't partner with airlines to offer the MPL.
3. Modular (if even considered at all)
I for one, with plans to obtain my CPL/IR by 2012 (modular), am concerned that doors will be slammed shut in my face with a big sign stating MPL only.
What do you think?
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MPL includes a Type Rating. How can you sell that to a wannabe if there isn't a job attached to it?
MPL will only be for tagged, mentored or sponsored cadets. You can count the number of airlines running these programmes on one hand.
The fATPL will be here for a very, very long time, attainable by modular or integrated with job opportunities for both routes determined by the economic conditions, not the existence of a few MPL cadet programmes.
MPL will only be for tagged, mentored or sponsored cadets. You can count the number of airlines running these programmes on one hand.
The fATPL will be here for a very, very long time, attainable by modular or integrated with job opportunities for both routes determined by the economic conditions, not the existence of a few MPL cadet programmes.
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But surely you will have an advantage with your com/IR over the guy with just a MPL?
You will have more experience as a pilot and have more to offer the company.
Of course the airline won't value that experience and MPL is just a way for them to justify paying you less or in fact having you pay them.
MPL is one of the final nails in the coffin for the profession.
You will have more experience as a pilot and have more to offer the company.
Of course the airline won't value that experience and MPL is just a way for them to justify paying you less or in fact having you pay them.
MPL is one of the final nails in the coffin for the profession.
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I'm under the impression that the MPL does come with a job offer - after all, isn't the ideology behind the MPL that it is tailored to an Airlines specific requirements / SOPs?
Henceforth surely there will be no competition amongst CPL/IR holders and MPL's.
Isn't the MPL ultimately going to become what "sponsorship" was back in the day and take the number 1 spot in terms of recruitment preference, thus putting modular further down the pecking order?
Henceforth surely there will be no competition amongst CPL/IR holders and MPL's.
Isn't the MPL ultimately going to become what "sponsorship" was back in the day and take the number 1 spot in terms of recruitment preference, thus putting modular further down the pecking order?
Last edited by Shiver me timbers!; 8th Mar 2009 at 04:03.
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David UK: At the risk of moving into a different argument, Integrated has never brought better job prospects than modular (apart from CTC), and like the MPL is really only a more efficient way for them to relieve you of cash. If you speak to any training capt, they will tell you that they expect the MPL to die out in time.
What matters is:
1. The reputation of the school you chose
2. That you get a first time IR pass
3. That it doesn't take you significantly longer to pass each bit
After that you are in the same boat as everyone else.
What matters is:
1. The reputation of the school you chose
2. That you get a first time IR pass
3. That it doesn't take you significantly longer to pass each bit
After that you are in the same boat as everyone else.
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I have to disagree with ewsd02. I think that the MPL will be the way to go for new airline jobs. If you can get on an MPL course then :-
You will have less debt as the MPL includes the sponsoring airlines type rating, and some of your debt is covered from payments out of your salary.
Dont forget that any type rating has to use someones SOPs so even if it all turns to worms you have valuable multi crew experience in a airline environment.
There are lots of "ifs and buts" but go for for if you get the chance.
As I expect there will be a lot of differing opinions. I will wait and see but as I am involved in the business thats how I see it.
You will have less debt as the MPL includes the sponsoring airlines type rating, and some of your debt is covered from payments out of your salary.
Dont forget that any type rating has to use someones SOPs so even if it all turns to worms you have valuable multi crew experience in a airline environment.
There are lots of "ifs and buts" but go for for if you get the chance.
As I expect there will be a lot of differing opinions. I will wait and see but as I am involved in the business thats how I see it.
rogerg, quite so!
The huge advantage to the airline is that they will have selected trainee pilots on their MPL programmes. I also note that at least 2 major companies introducing MPL training have included more 'real' aircraft flying than the mandatory minimum.
FlyBe, for example, will select its first 6 MPL trainees in a 4 stage process. Also, they will receive PA28, PA34 and Firefly (for uspets) training as well as all that simulator work. They will be required to fly solo at some stage, although the MPL does not include any single pilot qualifications.
Lufthansa's MPL cadets will receive some flight training on the Cessna Mustang VLJ at Bremen as part of their course.
As proposed under EASA, the MPL looked very ropey, to my mind. But as prudently adopted by FlyBe, it looks like the 'standard' future for commercial pilot training.
FlyBe have taken a bold step; I predict nothing but success for them and their MPL students.
The huge advantage to the airline is that they will have selected trainee pilots on their MPL programmes. I also note that at least 2 major companies introducing MPL training have included more 'real' aircraft flying than the mandatory minimum.
FlyBe, for example, will select its first 6 MPL trainees in a 4 stage process. Also, they will receive PA28, PA34 and Firefly (for uspets) training as well as all that simulator work. They will be required to fly solo at some stage, although the MPL does not include any single pilot qualifications.
Lufthansa's MPL cadets will receive some flight training on the Cessna Mustang VLJ at Bremen as part of their course.
As proposed under EASA, the MPL looked very ropey, to my mind. But as prudently adopted by FlyBe, it looks like the 'standard' future for commercial pilot training.
FlyBe have taken a bold step; I predict nothing but success for them and their MPL students.
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Excuse my ignorance and for taking this thread off at a tangent - but why are Flybe even starting this training package (or building an academy), let alone a whole new way of training.
Any wannabee that comes to pprune will get the impression that the aviation world is at its lowest point, hundreds of thousands of experienced pilots out there flipping burgers and 200hr cadets willing to buy a job at Ryanair.
There is a very interesting thread (ongoing for the past couple of years) about the MPL course offered in the Philippines - straight into the RHS of an A320 at Cebu Pacific- cost $70K. Now there has been a lot of problems there (management mostly from what I have gathered) but what most senior pilots were saying was that they could not trust a 70hr pilot to fly the damn thing - therefore the MPL cadet would be reduced to nothing more than a flap operator.
70 hrs being the amount of hours an MPL would get including the 12 take/offs and landings you get in the A320. Is 70 hours the requirement for Flybe or would it still be around the 200 hours?
But still the point remains - why would any airline go through the paperwork and hassle of adopting a new course like an MPL when thousands out there are prepared to pay for a TR?
Any wannabee that comes to pprune will get the impression that the aviation world is at its lowest point, hundreds of thousands of experienced pilots out there flipping burgers and 200hr cadets willing to buy a job at Ryanair.
There is a very interesting thread (ongoing for the past couple of years) about the MPL course offered in the Philippines - straight into the RHS of an A320 at Cebu Pacific- cost $70K. Now there has been a lot of problems there (management mostly from what I have gathered) but what most senior pilots were saying was that they could not trust a 70hr pilot to fly the damn thing - therefore the MPL cadet would be reduced to nothing more than a flap operator.
70 hrs being the amount of hours an MPL would get including the 12 take/offs and landings you get in the A320. Is 70 hours the requirement for Flybe or would it still be around the 200 hours?
But still the point remains - why would any airline go through the paperwork and hassle of adopting a new course like an MPL when thousands out there are prepared to pay for a TR?
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Dont forget that the FLYBE Mpls will not be on the line for at least 2years, also they will get pilots that have a lot more than 70hrs and have been trained as they want them.
I dont think that anything that goes on in the Philippines has any relevance here.
70 hrs must be wrong. Is that airplane time, sim time, or what. A Flybe MPL has a similar no of training hrs as an fatpl but more time in a sim.
I dont think that anything that goes on in the Philippines has any relevance here.
70 hrs must be wrong. Is that airplane time, sim time, or what. A Flybe MPL has a similar no of training hrs as an fatpl but more time in a sim.
Last edited by rogerg; 9th Mar 2009 at 10:38.
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As BEagle says, selection is key to the process.
As only a tiny minority of traning captains have any experience of MPLs, I would take such views with a pinch of salt.
If you speak to any training capt, they will tell you that they expect the MPL to die out in time.
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rogerg,
actually, the MPL that was being tried in the Philippines since 2007 had the worlds eager eyes on it. This was a bespoke college built top specifically train approximately 120 cadets per year where the majority got a 50% scholarship from Cebu Pacific. Cebu Pacific is the second airline behind Philippine Airlines.
School was Interanationally run, state of the art simulator etc. 0hours to A320 TR within 12 months. I really went all out to get information and decided against it when I realised that the MPL is airline specific, so I couldn't come back to the UK and try and go to an airline here.
So it is very relevant! If the course had gone according to plan and didn't have the problems that occured (I think they only had one cessna registered to fly!) so cadets became an A320 pilot in 12 months, then naturally the whole world was watching.
I suggest everyone who is interested in the MPL read the massive thread on the South-East Asian forum. Only the first few pages mind - afterwards it becomes a slanging match as to why 2 years later, no cadets have graduated yet!
The thread to read is called Clark Institute of Aviation.
In 2007, one of my first posts was "IS MPL Mickey Mouse". If you click on my previous threads you will see it. I got some interesting replies so youc an read the replies to see whther they still hold true in 2009.
actually, the MPL that was being tried in the Philippines since 2007 had the worlds eager eyes on it. This was a bespoke college built top specifically train approximately 120 cadets per year where the majority got a 50% scholarship from Cebu Pacific. Cebu Pacific is the second airline behind Philippine Airlines.
School was Interanationally run, state of the art simulator etc. 0hours to A320 TR within 12 months. I really went all out to get information and decided against it when I realised that the MPL is airline specific, so I couldn't come back to the UK and try and go to an airline here.
So it is very relevant! If the course had gone according to plan and didn't have the problems that occured (I think they only had one cessna registered to fly!) so cadets became an A320 pilot in 12 months, then naturally the whole world was watching.
I suggest everyone who is interested in the MPL read the massive thread on the South-East Asian forum. Only the first few pages mind - afterwards it becomes a slanging match as to why 2 years later, no cadets have graduated yet!
The thread to read is called Clark Institute of Aviation.
In 2007, one of my first posts was "IS MPL Mickey Mouse". If you click on my previous threads you will see it. I got some interesting replies so youc an read the replies to see whther they still hold true in 2009.
Last edited by Mach086; 9th Mar 2009 at 10:51. Reason: To put in a link to previous posts
MPL could be:
a) A way of dumbing down and cheapening flying trainig,
or
b) A way of making existing training spend more productive and relative.
Its all in the implementation - Flybe appear to be doing it well. But there's a well known aviation rule of thumb; never fly the Mk1.
The MPL as it stands today is the Mk1.
WWW
a) A way of dumbing down and cheapening flying trainig,
or
b) A way of making existing training spend more productive and relative.
Its all in the implementation - Flybe appear to be doing it well. But there's a well known aviation rule of thumb; never fly the Mk1.
The MPL as it stands today is the Mk1.
WWW
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At a risk of re-igniting a perpetual debate:
This was one of the replies I recieved to my 2007 post "Is MPL mickey mouse". Apologies for re-igniting a mod vs int debate lol
Just a veiw from the left hand seat of a 78 tonne jet.
Most of the new integrated course first officers I see are only just able to land the jet, won't do a visual approach and are very reluctent to disengage the autopilot above 500ft and as for command decisions........................ that is a long way off!
The Modular guys are usualy much better, with the ability to hand fly the jet to an exeptable standard and are capable of reasonable "command decisions".
This multi crew licence is a disaster in the making and is the invention of accountants and people who have no idea what airline flying is all about and is the next money making plan by the integrated training providers, after all they charge the integrated students about £20,000 more than modular students for the same licence!
Why don't you prospective pilots get together and Kick the whole MCL and integrated course thing into touch.
If you all boycotted the integrated courses and went down the modular route you would all be £20,000 better off and IMO better pilots for it, the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage.
The only people that the integrated course benifits is the training providors and the airlines who are all getting money and tax breaks at your expence.
Posted by A and C
I love this sentence though:
"the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage"
I'm guessing 2007 was a good year then when this post was written?
Just a veiw from the left hand seat of a 78 tonne jet.
Most of the new integrated course first officers I see are only just able to land the jet, won't do a visual approach and are very reluctent to disengage the autopilot above 500ft and as for command decisions........................ that is a long way off!
The Modular guys are usualy much better, with the ability to hand fly the jet to an exeptable standard and are capable of reasonable "command decisions".
This multi crew licence is a disaster in the making and is the invention of accountants and people who have no idea what airline flying is all about and is the next money making plan by the integrated training providers, after all they charge the integrated students about £20,000 more than modular students for the same licence!
Why don't you prospective pilots get together and Kick the whole MCL and integrated course thing into touch.
If you all boycotted the integrated courses and went down the modular route you would all be £20,000 better off and IMO better pilots for it, the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage.
The only people that the integrated course benifits is the training providors and the airlines who are all getting money and tax breaks at your expence.
Posted by A and C
I love this sentence though:
"the industry would have no option to employ you because of the pilot shortage"
I'm guessing 2007 was a good year then when this post was written?
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Oh well, goodbye thread, WWW, the prune pessimist has invaded!
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.
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We can argue all day about whether the MPL will or will not become established. The facts and probables are:
1. Previous attempts at the MPL have been unsuccessful, and experiences abroad do matter
2. The industry is sceptical, particularly training Capts
3. If you graduate from an MPL and don't get the job (as has happened) you are screwed in the current job market
3. If the MPL does become established, UK flying training will change massively and many flying schools will fold due to lack of business = impact on all light aircraft flying which feeds many vital elements of UK aviation
4. The big training schools are keen because the financial margins are better on simulators
5. In the future you could find jet flight crews with barely 1000hrs between them
6. New people entering the industry will be blinded by the prospect of a straight to jet job, and need to be aware that the MPL is very much in its infancy and could yet die out.
1. Previous attempts at the MPL have been unsuccessful, and experiences abroad do matter
2. The industry is sceptical, particularly training Capts
3. If you graduate from an MPL and don't get the job (as has happened) you are screwed in the current job market
3. If the MPL does become established, UK flying training will change massively and many flying schools will fold due to lack of business = impact on all light aircraft flying which feeds many vital elements of UK aviation
4. The big training schools are keen because the financial margins are better on simulators
5. In the future you could find jet flight crews with barely 1000hrs between them
6. New people entering the industry will be blinded by the prospect of a straight to jet job, and need to be aware that the MPL is very much in its infancy and could yet die out.
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If you had an MPL now you would be on very low hrs and with virtually no chance of getting into another airline. That is putting aside the fact the other airlines would think twice about taking on an MPL in any case.
rogerg said
Unlike you I'm not an MCC instructor, retired and supplementing my Service pension from student pilots/wannabe airline pilot training fees.. Therefore you'll forgive me for differing from your view from the training industry perspective. From which the MPL is yet another new business opportunity.
I'm sure you don't suffer from pessimism as you're old, crusty and retired. Unlike those of us with babies, mortgages and careers still to manage.
PPRuNe pessimism has so far proved extremely accurate, more than timely and somewhat unique. If you object and live in the training system then perhaps you're more a part of the enemy than the cavalry?
Hmm? Just a thought.
Oh well, goodbye thread, WWW, the prune pessimist has invaded!
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.
I speak from many hours in command as a trainer and I see very little difference in the new pilots. What does vary is the company ethos and the ability of the captain to allow the FOs to hand fly.
Unlike you I'm not an MCC instructor, retired and supplementing my Service pension from student pilots/wannabe airline pilot training fees.. Therefore you'll forgive me for differing from your view from the training industry perspective. From which the MPL is yet another new business opportunity.
I'm sure you don't suffer from pessimism as you're old, crusty and retired. Unlike those of us with babies, mortgages and careers still to manage.
PPRuNe pessimism has so far proved extremely accurate, more than timely and somewhat unique. If you object and live in the training system then perhaps you're more a part of the enemy than the cavalry?
Hmm? Just a thought.