Oxford Air Training
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RE: Modular/integrated/CTC/Oxford:
I did integrated and would do again should I have to make a choice. I felt personally it was the environment where I would do best. However when visiting schools I found some smaller modular schools (eg. PAT, BFC) better in many aspects.
I ended up on a jet via the CTC ATP scheme. Others joining me included plently of modular trained people with 250ish hours, some with maybe a little instructional or air taxi work under their belt.
The CTC wings scheme from what I understand is modular anyway!
I would personally NEVER go to Oxford simply because the price is silly.... (i am sure the training is first class) and before somebody starts raving about the 40 hours 737 sim training... well it aint a 737 simulator even though they seem to insist it is (its an FNPT2) .
Do the course you feel suits your needs. Plenty of students at integrated schools have done badly and therefore have a reduced chance of employment. A modular student may have chosen his school(s) wisely and finished up with first time passes throughout and may be more employable.
I would say CTC is by far the best way into an airline job at the current time.
For myself the hard choice was integrated or modular. Once I had decided integrated it was simply take the cheapest in the UK ( the standard at all integrated schools being good).
Finally as WWW mentioned, dont think the CP at X airways where you are trying to get a job was oxford trained. Maybe he has worked his way up the ranks and would much prefer the same sort of background in his recruits.
Who knows!!??!
I did integrated and would do again should I have to make a choice. I felt personally it was the environment where I would do best. However when visiting schools I found some smaller modular schools (eg. PAT, BFC) better in many aspects.
I ended up on a jet via the CTC ATP scheme. Others joining me included plently of modular trained people with 250ish hours, some with maybe a little instructional or air taxi work under their belt.
The CTC wings scheme from what I understand is modular anyway!
I would personally NEVER go to Oxford simply because the price is silly.... (i am sure the training is first class) and before somebody starts raving about the 40 hours 737 sim training... well it aint a 737 simulator even though they seem to insist it is (its an FNPT2) .
Do the course you feel suits your needs. Plenty of students at integrated schools have done badly and therefore have a reduced chance of employment. A modular student may have chosen his school(s) wisely and finished up with first time passes throughout and may be more employable.
I would say CTC is by far the best way into an airline job at the current time.
For myself the hard choice was integrated or modular. Once I had decided integrated it was simply take the cheapest in the UK ( the standard at all integrated schools being good).
Finally as WWW mentioned, dont think the CP at X airways where you are trying to get a job was oxford trained. Maybe he has worked his way up the ranks and would much prefer the same sort of background in his recruits.
Who knows!!??!
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Been reading with slight interest, both suprised and amused at the anger and tension created by a simple question
'which is better?'
I would have expected a slightly more mature attitude from some, I mean a question which could promt a good, productive and fairly useful discussion subject has turned into a football hooligan style slanging match, just without the beer glasses and violence (bitchy arguing on PPrune??!! Never!) I would dread to think that our beloved profession's workforce has changed from a mature and well respected one, to one of a bunch of moaning kids who get all p*ssed off when a "rival" FTO says something they dont like! Grow up people!!!
I am currently out with CTC in NZ, and im not going to do the whole OAT-bashing thing, because quite frankly, I dont know what theyre like, I never looked into them, I stumbled across CTC first, was impressed, and signed up. One thing I would say though from speaking to many airline pilots is that the dominating concern for many new pilots is simply finding a job, almost everywhere you look, airlines are offering jobs to pilots with +1500 hours or a huge number of hours on a specific type, usually a jet of some description, how is one to find a job when this seems to be the general requirement?
I am not asking a rhetorical question, to which I will put a witty or persuasive comment, I am genuinely asking, I have never been through this process of job-hunting, as well as the whole finance issue, I saw the career possibilities associated with being a low-hour pilot as quite concerning, its a catch 22, you need hours to get a job and you need a job to get hours.
This will probably get argued against no end by one of the many short-fused and angry people who post on this forum, and before I get a load of nasty replies contradicting what I just said, I would like to make it clear, I am not implying that this is fact, this is just what I have been told by many Pilots, from a variety of different nationalities and a variety of airlines.
This prompted me to prioritise the negatives of the industry, finance and job availability topped my list in big bold letters, and this lead to the attraction to CTC, it is true that a job is NOT A GUARANTEE, and they make no effort to hide this fact, it is printed everywhere, probably for moral and legal reasons combined, however, after being told that a new pilot has a very hard time getting a job, I was confronted by a company who not only had airlines pulling pilots in by the dozen (literally in alot of cases), they were paying for the priviledge!
I was thinking whether or not this is natural, this seemed to be an industry where you need to have a Pilot CV the length of an A340 and more hours logged than a DHL 727 to get a job, and suddenly, airlines are turning away from experienced Pilots and rushing to CTC? Thats what pulled me in, thats what made me apply, it took one of the huge negatives away, yeah, I didnt have a guaranteed job, but I had a big chance of getting one. As a bonus, the other big negative, finance, that was taken care of too.
A few months ago whilst on my lunch break at Bristol Ground School, I got an e-mail telling me EJ wanted to offer me an interview along with another 14 cadets at CTC, I have since been selected for employment by them, without lifting a finger, I can only assume this is purely based on the reputation of CTC.
As I said, I have made no attempt to imply that my assumptions are fact, so dont go bombarding me with nasty comments about how wrong I am, please, by all means prove me wrong, I would be interested to find out some FACTS, however I dont care for the usual mindless "youre a
" etc etc.
It is human nature to take a perspective on what we are told and shown and make up assumptions on it, I took the info given to me by Pilots and CTC and based my career decisions on it, and now I am out in NZ, training hard and waiting to start with EJ, so its not exactly done me a huge misfortune applying to CTC has it?
Again, to the angry people who post on here, please, feel free to call me names, insult me, tell me I am stupid, tell me I dont know what I am talking about, etc etc, it doesnt bother me, I know as much as anyone that this profession is hard enough to get into and I wish anyone and everyone the best of luck in the future (even you angry posters). I just hope I can get some feedback as to whether my views are correct or not and/or some closure on whether or not my opinions are fact. I also hope some people find my post useful.
Best of luck everyone
'which is better?'
I would have expected a slightly more mature attitude from some, I mean a question which could promt a good, productive and fairly useful discussion subject has turned into a football hooligan style slanging match, just without the beer glasses and violence (bitchy arguing on PPrune??!! Never!) I would dread to think that our beloved profession's workforce has changed from a mature and well respected one, to one of a bunch of moaning kids who get all p*ssed off when a "rival" FTO says something they dont like! Grow up people!!!
I am currently out with CTC in NZ, and im not going to do the whole OAT-bashing thing, because quite frankly, I dont know what theyre like, I never looked into them, I stumbled across CTC first, was impressed, and signed up. One thing I would say though from speaking to many airline pilots is that the dominating concern for many new pilots is simply finding a job, almost everywhere you look, airlines are offering jobs to pilots with +1500 hours or a huge number of hours on a specific type, usually a jet of some description, how is one to find a job when this seems to be the general requirement?
I am not asking a rhetorical question, to which I will put a witty or persuasive comment, I am genuinely asking, I have never been through this process of job-hunting, as well as the whole finance issue, I saw the career possibilities associated with being a low-hour pilot as quite concerning, its a catch 22, you need hours to get a job and you need a job to get hours.
This will probably get argued against no end by one of the many short-fused and angry people who post on this forum, and before I get a load of nasty replies contradicting what I just said, I would like to make it clear, I am not implying that this is fact, this is just what I have been told by many Pilots, from a variety of different nationalities and a variety of airlines.
This prompted me to prioritise the negatives of the industry, finance and job availability topped my list in big bold letters, and this lead to the attraction to CTC, it is true that a job is NOT A GUARANTEE, and they make no effort to hide this fact, it is printed everywhere, probably for moral and legal reasons combined, however, after being told that a new pilot has a very hard time getting a job, I was confronted by a company who not only had airlines pulling pilots in by the dozen (literally in alot of cases), they were paying for the priviledge!
I was thinking whether or not this is natural, this seemed to be an industry where you need to have a Pilot CV the length of an A340 and more hours logged than a DHL 727 to get a job, and suddenly, airlines are turning away from experienced Pilots and rushing to CTC? Thats what pulled me in, thats what made me apply, it took one of the huge negatives away, yeah, I didnt have a guaranteed job, but I had a big chance of getting one. As a bonus, the other big negative, finance, that was taken care of too.
A few months ago whilst on my lunch break at Bristol Ground School, I got an e-mail telling me EJ wanted to offer me an interview along with another 14 cadets at CTC, I have since been selected for employment by them, without lifting a finger, I can only assume this is purely based on the reputation of CTC.
As I said, I have made no attempt to imply that my assumptions are fact, so dont go bombarding me with nasty comments about how wrong I am, please, by all means prove me wrong, I would be interested to find out some FACTS, however I dont care for the usual mindless "youre a
" etc etc. It is human nature to take a perspective on what we are told and shown and make up assumptions on it, I took the info given to me by Pilots and CTC and based my career decisions on it, and now I am out in NZ, training hard and waiting to start with EJ, so its not exactly done me a huge misfortune applying to CTC has it?
Again, to the angry people who post on here, please, feel free to call me names, insult me, tell me I am stupid, tell me I dont know what I am talking about, etc etc, it doesnt bother me, I know as much as anyone that this profession is hard enough to get into and I wish anyone and everyone the best of luck in the future (even you angry posters). I just hope I can get some feedback as to whether my views are correct or not and/or some closure on whether or not my opinions are fact. I also hope some people find my post useful.
Best of luck everyone
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hi all,
Fatboy tim like your comments along with everyone that has had something constructive to say. I've noticed that the OAT guys can't speak at all highly of the CTC, FTE and CABAIR people but the CTC, FTE and CABAIR guys can say that they respect the OAT guys. Go figure for yourselves.
Whats with OAT students thinking that CTC is an easier course than OAT -> HAVE A WORD! CTC is a structured modular course (very soon to be integrated i've heard) therefore they do more hours than OAT, ergo its harder. OAT students get taught their ATPL theory stuff so if you like being spoon fed information go there, oh but also they dont get the best results. If you can work on your own in a harder faster paced flying environment and also get good results go to CTC. I unfortunately failed CTC and I am gutted but not bitter, thats why I am coming out in support of them. The CTC guys respect OAT as a good FTO but just because it has people that may not have got onto the CTC Wings scheme does not make it a sxxt FTO.
CTC is the only FTO offering the highest chance of employment through their sponsorship arrangements. Airlines are paying CTC for their pilots. Do they at OAT? No, so get off your high horses! I would have had to have gone to OAT seeing as I failed CTC selection but I dont want to mix with the people I see there. Simple. Yes, i've been for a "visit" to their so called boeing 737 sim but did not feel at all welcome.
Good luck all
Fatboy tim like your comments along with everyone that has had something constructive to say. I've noticed that the OAT guys can't speak at all highly of the CTC, FTE and CABAIR people but the CTC, FTE and CABAIR guys can say that they respect the OAT guys. Go figure for yourselves.
Whats with OAT students thinking that CTC is an easier course than OAT -> HAVE A WORD! CTC is a structured modular course (very soon to be integrated i've heard) therefore they do more hours than OAT, ergo its harder. OAT students get taught their ATPL theory stuff so if you like being spoon fed information go there, oh but also they dont get the best results. If you can work on your own in a harder faster paced flying environment and also get good results go to CTC. I unfortunately failed CTC and I am gutted but not bitter, thats why I am coming out in support of them. The CTC guys respect OAT as a good FTO but just because it has people that may not have got onto the CTC Wings scheme does not make it a sxxt FTO.
CTC is the only FTO offering the highest chance of employment through their sponsorship arrangements. Airlines are paying CTC for their pilots. Do they at OAT? No, so get off your high horses! I would have had to have gone to OAT seeing as I failed CTC selection but I dont want to mix with the people I see there. Simple. Yes, i've been for a "visit" to their so called boeing 737 sim but did not feel at all welcome.
Good luck all
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Airlines are paying CTC for their pilots. Do they at OAT? No, so get off your high horses!
OAT students get taught their ATPL theory stuff so if you like being spoon fed information go there
On a serious note though, the reason people ask questions like "Oxford or CTC?" is surely to get a reasoned response about the quality of the FTO rather than these mindless arguments?
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Mindless arguments,
I think a few underlying points of my post went a little unnoticed, to summarise my lengthy post, I believe the question at hand, "which is better", should have been re-worded to 'please list the pros and cons' a few people have touched on that, but most of this has been the usual high school style 'Yeah well our school football team is better than yours because of this...' which to anyone reading this trying to dig some useful info out of it is completely useless, now im no philosopher, nor am I a psychologist, but 2 things strike me from the perspective of a potential applicant to either CTC or OAT
1) it wouldnt be my preference or be particularly beneficial to see 2 companies's cadets slagging eachother off, I would want to know hard facts, based on experience from cadets, I wouldnt want to be a spectator, sitting on the sidelines with 60 grand in my hand waiting to throw it at the winner of a petty argument, and...
2) it would make me a little concerned to see cadets from some very reputable companies engaging in this 'mindless arguing'
is there a reason behind this arguing people?? I'm not taking the father-figure role or trying to pretend I am 'wiser' than anyone or anything, I just know that I didnt even know about PPrune when I was going through applications to CTC and I would have seen it as a valuable resourse on which to base decisions and guide me into my career. The general summary of this discussion seems to be 'were the best and lets prove it!!'
It could be said that people at OAT are happy there enough to defend it to the last, likewise with people at CTC, another way to look at it would be to say that cadets from both companies want to reassure themselves that they made the right company decision and shed any thoughts of 'the grass is greener on the other side'.
The truth is people, we cant prove anything, I bet no-one here has been on both courses and therefore has no basis for comparison, I dont know what OAT is like, from what I can tell they are a reputable training organisation, and as for their general goal of getting people to become airline pilots, they must be doing something right otherwise they would have probably folded before now, as would have CTC.
I believe the choice of company depends many things, but for anyone basing a life changing decision on what they read here, please FOR GOD SAKE dont just go for the company whose cadets have 'wittier smart-alec comments' than the other! Its insanity!
Cadets in New Zealand, Arizona, Jerez or wherever have a valuable experience that can be offered as help, or not, but for any of this to be useful, we need to grow up and accept that each company has pros and cons. Simple as.
Be nice people!!!
(ps. sorry it didnt turn out to be much of a "summary")
I think a few underlying points of my post went a little unnoticed, to summarise my lengthy post, I believe the question at hand, "which is better", should have been re-worded to 'please list the pros and cons' a few people have touched on that, but most of this has been the usual high school style 'Yeah well our school football team is better than yours because of this...' which to anyone reading this trying to dig some useful info out of it is completely useless, now im no philosopher, nor am I a psychologist, but 2 things strike me from the perspective of a potential applicant to either CTC or OAT
1) it wouldnt be my preference or be particularly beneficial to see 2 companies's cadets slagging eachother off, I would want to know hard facts, based on experience from cadets, I wouldnt want to be a spectator, sitting on the sidelines with 60 grand in my hand waiting to throw it at the winner of a petty argument, and...
2) it would make me a little concerned to see cadets from some very reputable companies engaging in this 'mindless arguing'
is there a reason behind this arguing people?? I'm not taking the father-figure role or trying to pretend I am 'wiser' than anyone or anything, I just know that I didnt even know about PPrune when I was going through applications to CTC and I would have seen it as a valuable resourse on which to base decisions and guide me into my career. The general summary of this discussion seems to be 'were the best and lets prove it!!'
It could be said that people at OAT are happy there enough to defend it to the last, likewise with people at CTC, another way to look at it would be to say that cadets from both companies want to reassure themselves that they made the right company decision and shed any thoughts of 'the grass is greener on the other side'.
The truth is people, we cant prove anything, I bet no-one here has been on both courses and therefore has no basis for comparison, I dont know what OAT is like, from what I can tell they are a reputable training organisation, and as for their general goal of getting people to become airline pilots, they must be doing something right otherwise they would have probably folded before now, as would have CTC.
I believe the choice of company depends many things, but for anyone basing a life changing decision on what they read here, please FOR GOD SAKE dont just go for the company whose cadets have 'wittier smart-alec comments' than the other! Its insanity!
Cadets in New Zealand, Arizona, Jerez or wherever have a valuable experience that can be offered as help, or not, but for any of this to be useful, we need to grow up and accept that each company has pros and cons. Simple as.
Be nice people!!!
(ps. sorry it didnt turn out to be much of a "summary")
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lol, looks like we have an anonymous CTC cadets amongst us!
Yeah all this ranting on here definately encourages one to leg it to the nearest BP and bark '20 Marlboro Lights' to the cashier!
but I wont!!!
As for my BBQ eating antics, that cow died for a good cause, I believe eating a Kilo of it's muscular behind is a new record in these parts, I await a challenge!!
(not too soon though, I felt pretty sick after eating that...)
Yeah all this ranting on here definately encourages one to leg it to the nearest BP and bark '20 Marlboro Lights' to the cashier!
but I wont!!!
As for my BBQ eating antics, that cow died for a good cause, I believe eating a Kilo of it's muscular behind is a new record in these parts, I await a challenge!!
(not too soon though, I felt pretty sick after eating that...)
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Nice to see someone talking some sence FatboyTim
I think which of the to you go to is more of a personal choice dependent upon what you see as your prioreites. I chose the CTC Scheme based upon them being a reputable firm offering high quality training and with an 100% success rate at placing cadets with an airline. I also see OAT as a reputable firm who no doubt also offer high quality training. However CTC offered a better chance of employment than OAT.
That was what was most important to me at the time. Some people may be more concered about cost, or whether the course is intergrated or modular, but to me that was not really an issue.
To add to that point I think all A Miller ment by
"OAT guys being spoon fed info"
Veetwo was that the OAT ATP shceme is a more structed learning enviroment, which some people may prefer espically those not used to studying independently. I dont think he was implying that OAT guys cannot absorb information for themselves.
Good luck all
Chris
I think which of the to you go to is more of a personal choice dependent upon what you see as your prioreites. I chose the CTC Scheme based upon them being a reputable firm offering high quality training and with an 100% success rate at placing cadets with an airline. I also see OAT as a reputable firm who no doubt also offer high quality training. However CTC offered a better chance of employment than OAT.
That was what was most important to me at the time. Some people may be more concered about cost, or whether the course is intergrated or modular, but to me that was not really an issue.
To add to that point I think all A Miller ment by
"OAT guys being spoon fed info"
Veetwo was that the OAT ATP shceme is a more structed learning enviroment, which some people may prefer espically those not used to studying independently. I dont think he was implying that OAT guys cannot absorb information for themselves.
Good luck all
Chris
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Fatboytim,
It was all about the Chicken drumsticks mate… lol
For anyone who hasn’t twigged on the BBQ banter, yes I am a CTC cadet training out in NZ.
I've already written a fair whack of ‘factual’ information about CTC. So I’ll leave most of that out.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...11#post1960811
My main point is that I support exactly what you are saying.
To all other readers & posters,
The commonality is that we all want to get our licences, pick up as much experience as we can and get the ‘holy grail’ (right hand seat of a jet belonging to a major airline). Unfortunately, this thread hasn’t really done much to assist the person who first started it.
It leaves me concerned only for people who are trying to research how to get into this industry. Guys don’t be put off by what you read on PPrune! There’s a lot of attitude on here and a good 80% of what you read comes straight out of a Donkey’s ars*. (In fact; my apologies to the Donkey race). This is partly contributed by:
1) Cadets from each school.
(This is useful only when they support their own establishment with objective factual information).
2) People who actually work for these schools/companies and who try to sound like cadets etc.
(They generally tend to be more constructive in what they say but are rather biased).
3) People who unfortunately got stung by one of these schools/companies at some point &/ failed/missed the required standard in some part of selection/currency testing. Of course they rarely admit this!
(However, there have been some admirable objective comments by some people who have openly admitted to being in this position).
The good news is that 20% of what you read is useful information. It’s just spending the time to find it and then maybe PM-ing the guys who post it as so to get some more information. Generally these will be the people that tend to get back to you as well!
When I finally accepted that the BA sponsorship scheme had been consigned to the graveyard for ever and knowing I wasn’t getting any younger; I had to think about my last stand at getting the dream job.
Without initially reading the sh*te spewed out on PPrune, I researched the 5 possible avenues left to me. CTC, OAT, FTE, Cabair or a longer modular route where I kept my current job until I had enough hours & qualifications to step over.
This involved an ‘in depth’ study of their websites, ordering every brochure they had to offer and conducting a lot of comparative analysis. After spending some time on this, I prioritised the key issues. As for with Fatboytim, the top 2 for me were PLACEMENT (a company’s ability to successfully place as many cadets as possible derives from many other attributes) & FINANCE (I had no money to spend on training. This meant firstly I had to have a way of getting the money and secondly because I was borrowing it; I had to be as sure as I could that it was being invested wisely). My order of preference in terms of making applications was as listed above.
I was lucky enough to succeed with CTC. This was the best option for me. OAT would have been next. They have an initiative that assists cadets in finding employment & openly publicise they’re success rates in terms of numbers & airlines. They also offer similar financial arrangements with a bank as with CTC.
However the important philosophy with CTC is that the ‘airlines’ are the ‘customers’. We are not! Therefore CTC don’t advertise in the industry press & their selection process is by far the hardest. I’ve only been training for just over 2 months now and I should know in the next few weeks which airline I will be working for, upon successful completion of the course. You then have to ask yourself, why do several major UK airlines have this type of confidence in CTC?
I’d just like to provide some general stuff in response to OAT-BA related stuff posted on here as well.
1. BA have a good relationship with OAT, they used to send a lot of their cadets to them for training back in the day. OAT provides more cadets to BA than they do to any other airline (when I last checked).
2. Far from everyone wants to work for BA once all the cards have been laid on the table.
3. CTC are again providing more cadets to BA and have the potential to provide a lot more once they get ‘integrated’ status.
4. Regardless of where you come from, if you are earmarked for BA, you’ll have to go through their entire selection process as it was for their sponsorship scheme. Ouch, if you’re fully qualified and fail a PILAPT test or worse still one of those 500Q personality checks (Madmandan1, Globalwarning & Ston’ed’ Cold
)!
Good luck to everyone trying to get the dream job!
P.S. Fatboy, I happen to know who Monarch A330 is! If can you sort me out with some more flights I may be prepared to break with convention & betray him to you..
It was all about the Chicken drumsticks mate… lol
For anyone who hasn’t twigged on the BBQ banter, yes I am a CTC cadet training out in NZ.
I've already written a fair whack of ‘factual’ information about CTC. So I’ll leave most of that out.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...11#post1960811
My main point is that I support exactly what you are saying.
To all other readers & posters,
The commonality is that we all want to get our licences, pick up as much experience as we can and get the ‘holy grail’ (right hand seat of a jet belonging to a major airline). Unfortunately, this thread hasn’t really done much to assist the person who first started it.
It leaves me concerned only for people who are trying to research how to get into this industry. Guys don’t be put off by what you read on PPrune! There’s a lot of attitude on here and a good 80% of what you read comes straight out of a Donkey’s ars*. (In fact; my apologies to the Donkey race). This is partly contributed by:
1) Cadets from each school.
(This is useful only when they support their own establishment with objective factual information).
2) People who actually work for these schools/companies and who try to sound like cadets etc.
(They generally tend to be more constructive in what they say but are rather biased).
3) People who unfortunately got stung by one of these schools/companies at some point &/ failed/missed the required standard in some part of selection/currency testing. Of course they rarely admit this!
(However, there have been some admirable objective comments by some people who have openly admitted to being in this position).
The good news is that 20% of what you read is useful information. It’s just spending the time to find it and then maybe PM-ing the guys who post it as so to get some more information. Generally these will be the people that tend to get back to you as well!
When I finally accepted that the BA sponsorship scheme had been consigned to the graveyard for ever and knowing I wasn’t getting any younger; I had to think about my last stand at getting the dream job.
Without initially reading the sh*te spewed out on PPrune, I researched the 5 possible avenues left to me. CTC, OAT, FTE, Cabair or a longer modular route where I kept my current job until I had enough hours & qualifications to step over.
This involved an ‘in depth’ study of their websites, ordering every brochure they had to offer and conducting a lot of comparative analysis. After spending some time on this, I prioritised the key issues. As for with Fatboytim, the top 2 for me were PLACEMENT (a company’s ability to successfully place as many cadets as possible derives from many other attributes) & FINANCE (I had no money to spend on training. This meant firstly I had to have a way of getting the money and secondly because I was borrowing it; I had to be as sure as I could that it was being invested wisely). My order of preference in terms of making applications was as listed above.
I was lucky enough to succeed with CTC. This was the best option for me. OAT would have been next. They have an initiative that assists cadets in finding employment & openly publicise they’re success rates in terms of numbers & airlines. They also offer similar financial arrangements with a bank as with CTC.
However the important philosophy with CTC is that the ‘airlines’ are the ‘customers’. We are not! Therefore CTC don’t advertise in the industry press & their selection process is by far the hardest. I’ve only been training for just over 2 months now and I should know in the next few weeks which airline I will be working for, upon successful completion of the course. You then have to ask yourself, why do several major UK airlines have this type of confidence in CTC?
I’d just like to provide some general stuff in response to OAT-BA related stuff posted on here as well.
1. BA have a good relationship with OAT, they used to send a lot of their cadets to them for training back in the day. OAT provides more cadets to BA than they do to any other airline (when I last checked).
2. Far from everyone wants to work for BA once all the cards have been laid on the table.
3. CTC are again providing more cadets to BA and have the potential to provide a lot more once they get ‘integrated’ status.
4. Regardless of where you come from, if you are earmarked for BA, you’ll have to go through their entire selection process as it was for their sponsorship scheme. Ouch, if you’re fully qualified and fail a PILAPT test or worse still one of those 500Q personality checks (Madmandan1, Globalwarning & Ston’ed’ Cold
)!Good luck to everyone trying to get the dream job!
P.S. Fatboy, I happen to know who Monarch A330 is! If can you sort me out with some more flights I may be prepared to break with convention & betray him to you..
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Hello,
I've been reading this forum with continued interest and now would like my conundrum to be put forward with some advice from yourselves.
I am a modular student , having done no training with the big four.
I passed most of the ground school first time (Perf !! on the second attempt), Distance Learning.
Did PPL at Oxford (not OAT but another school)
Hour building, Night and IMC in Florida.
IR in Spain. Yes, I did that first due time constraints at work.
I'm about to complete the Modular flight training, ie,the CPL part in Florida.
I have been quite shrewed and only owe about 8000 quid.
Having read this thread and the BALPA conference thread.
I have concluded that if you want a job, you must do the following:
1 Gone to one of the big four FTO.
2 Intergrated or Full-time Modular (CTC)
3 Be prepared to fund an extra 15-20 thousand for a type rating.
If this is the case. I am now considering ceasing training and cutting my losses.
What are your suggestions.
P.S I'm 34. So no spring chicken.
I've been reading this forum with continued interest and now would like my conundrum to be put forward with some advice from yourselves.
I am a modular student , having done no training with the big four.
I passed most of the ground school first time (Perf !! on the second attempt), Distance Learning.
Did PPL at Oxford (not OAT but another school)
Hour building, Night and IMC in Florida.
IR in Spain. Yes, I did that first due time constraints at work.
I'm about to complete the Modular flight training, ie,the CPL part in Florida.
I have been quite shrewed and only owe about 8000 quid.
Having read this thread and the BALPA conference thread.
I have concluded that if you want a job, you must do the following:
1 Gone to one of the big four FTO.
2 Intergrated or Full-time Modular (CTC)
3 Be prepared to fund an extra 15-20 thousand for a type rating.
If this is the case. I am now considering ceasing training and cutting my losses.
What are your suggestions.
P.S I'm 34. So no spring chicken.
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CTC's entry standards are higher than Oxford's? Not surprising really, as anyone with the right amount of money can get a place at Oxford. This is not a criticism of OAT; they are a commercial school that sells speculative training to potential pilots; CTC is a commercial pilot provider that sells baby pilots to the airlines, and charges both the airlines and the baby pilots for the privilege
If a self-sponsoring Oxford student fails, only that student is out of pocket. If a CTC student fails, the student and CTC are out of pocket, and the customer airline's plans are screwed up. That's why CTC must select their students to minimise the risk of failure, and why Oxford are very happy to take those who didn't quite make it.
Scroggs
If a self-sponsoring Oxford student fails, only that student is out of pocket. If a CTC student fails, the student and CTC are out of pocket, and the customer airline's plans are screwed up. That's why CTC must select their students to minimise the risk of failure, and why Oxford are very happy to take those who didn't quite make it.
Scroggs
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Not surprising really, as anyone with the right amount of money can get a place at Oxford
Erm no lol...thats the first bad comment i have ever heard from you Scroggs...
There are plenty of people i have heard about that have loads of cash and not get in because they don't meet the standard...
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what a load of rubbish.....i know of at least 3 or 4 people who have been unsuccessful at Oxfords selection, and I have friends at Oxford who also know people who were unsuccessful....remember Oxford don't want to have a load of people who are only going to scrap through, it hardly makes them look good as a school if they get unmotivated people doing courses who only want to pass with the bare minimum grades.
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Crazypilot and 367outbound as far as I am aware, the only course at Oxford that currently requires potential students to undergo an aptitude, ability and attitude assessment procedure prior to starting the course is their 'APP First Officer' programme. Indeed, a post on 9th of this month on their forum by their Marketing Manager, Marty White, reveals that the only way to attend this selection procedure is to apply for the APP course and pay the required £195 to do so. Naturally, some people will fail this selection.
However, students who opt for the standard Oxford integrated course, or elect to purchase Oxford's modular products (other than their forthcoming 'Waypoint' product, and then only at a late stage in the course), face no such selection - and thus cannot fail it. This is no different to the majority of schools; many schools offer flying training products to whoever has the money to pay, and there is no reason why they shouldn't do so. The risk is purely financial, and is fully accepted by the customer in the contract with the FTO.
CTC, for better or worse, has chosen (as far as I can see) to put pretty much all its eggs in one basket: becoming a training provider to the airlines, rather than to the potential pilot (although the training is largely at the potential pilot's expense - but that's another argument!). Thus all its students face a selection procedure, and one which is essentially uninfluenced by the student's ability to pay. Oxford's APP is superficially similar, though their approach is in fact still contracted to the student rather than to an airline, and is intended to make the student as attractive as possible to whatever airlines are in the market at the time of the student's graduation. Thus the student's ability to pay is paramount, as there is no airline effectively underwriting the student's loan at the commencement of training (though I do accept that OAT 'facilitate' the loan).
I repeat: this is in no way a criticism of Oxford. It is simply a statement of the consequences of the differing commercial approaches taken by Oxford and CTC.
Scroggs
However, students who opt for the standard Oxford integrated course, or elect to purchase Oxford's modular products (other than their forthcoming 'Waypoint' product, and then only at a late stage in the course), face no such selection - and thus cannot fail it. This is no different to the majority of schools; many schools offer flying training products to whoever has the money to pay, and there is no reason why they shouldn't do so. The risk is purely financial, and is fully accepted by the customer in the contract with the FTO.
CTC, for better or worse, has chosen (as far as I can see) to put pretty much all its eggs in one basket: becoming a training provider to the airlines, rather than to the potential pilot (although the training is largely at the potential pilot's expense - but that's another argument!). Thus all its students face a selection procedure, and one which is essentially uninfluenced by the student's ability to pay. Oxford's APP is superficially similar, though their approach is in fact still contracted to the student rather than to an airline, and is intended to make the student as attractive as possible to whatever airlines are in the market at the time of the student's graduation. Thus the student's ability to pay is paramount, as there is no airline effectively underwriting the student's loan at the commencement of training (though I do accept that OAT 'facilitate' the loan).
I repeat: this is in no way a criticism of Oxford. It is simply a statement of the consequences of the differing commercial approaches taken by Oxford and CTC.
Scroggs
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CTC, for better or worse, has chosen (as far as I can see) to put pretty much all its eggs in one basket: becoming a training provider to the airlines, rather than to the potential pilot (although the training is largely at the potential pilot's expense - but that's another argument!).
CTC clearly views the airlines as the customers, the student pilot is seen as the product, never the customer.
OAT and the other schools are more acutely aware that the student pilot is the customer.
Why is this important?
Because in the customer centred evironment that the business of training delivery should be you focus on your customer's needs and satisfying those needs. For CTC, whose needs are more important, the trainees, or the airlines...!? Does this outlook affect the training received in any way, especially regarding the way the student pilots are treated!? I wonder...
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I know im biting but....
'Oxford (OAT) is full of CTC rejects'
Presumably then every other proffesional flight school in the UK should fall into this catagory? Including Cabair, Jerez etc.
Thats a massive chip you have on your shoulder AMiller you fail APP selection or something?!
A fairly pointless thread if you ask me.
'Oxford (OAT) is full of CTC rejects'
Presumably then every other proffesional flight school in the UK should fall into this catagory? Including Cabair, Jerez etc.
Thats a massive chip you have on your shoulder AMiller you fail APP selection or something?!
A fairly pointless thread if you ask me.
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Lol...
Discuss to what end AMiller? Who gives a monkeys?
Good little stir up though...
What was your trade(s) during the 4 years you 'spent' with the Royal Air Force prior to you then going through selection for CTC Wings??
Did you follow up on your plan to go to FTE when you didn't get through?
Cheers.
593..
Discuss to what end AMiller? Who gives a monkeys?
Good little stir up though...
What was your trade(s) during the 4 years you 'spent' with the Royal Air Force prior to you then going through selection for CTC Wings??
Did you follow up on your plan to go to FTE when you didn't get through?
Cheers.
593..
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AMiller is a CTC & Oxford reject discuss?
Discuss what? I should imagine chaps on both courses will be happy to be there. Nuff said.
With an outlook like yours, and a personality which enjoys stiring up bad feeling and arguments, are you suprised your not on either of these courses?
PG
Discuss what? I should imagine chaps on both courses will be happy to be there. Nuff said.
With an outlook like yours, and a personality which enjoys stiring up bad feeling and arguments, are you suprised your not on either of these courses?
PG
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Actually, although the motives for the original post may be a bit suspect, this is an interesting topic. CTC's approach is in contrast to that of almost every other FTO. Who is correct - and who is more likely to survive the next, inevitable, downturn?
My own feeling is that CTC's model is probably the right one for the established, mainstream airline industry. There will never be a national aviation college, paid for out of taxation (and nor, in my opinion, should there be), but there should be an industry-funded training establishment to provide pilots for the major airlines. It doesn't yet exist, but CTC's approach suggests that it might in future - though I doubt that industry will ever fully fund it while people are willing to pay so much to get into this field.
There will always be room for the smaller, bespoke training provider to provide people for smaller airlines and non-airline commercial operators, and to provide the surge capacity in times of heavy recruiting (and to take the pain in times of zero recruiting!), and to provide a way for those who have no desire to fly professionally to get professional qualifications if they want to.
cparker I don't understand your point. This is a UK-based site. Why should it not discuss the UK situation? The fact that the jobs market is currently more difficult elsewhere is irrelevant to this discussion.
Scroggs
My own feeling is that CTC's model is probably the right one for the established, mainstream airline industry. There will never be a national aviation college, paid for out of taxation (and nor, in my opinion, should there be), but there should be an industry-funded training establishment to provide pilots for the major airlines. It doesn't yet exist, but CTC's approach suggests that it might in future - though I doubt that industry will ever fully fund it while people are willing to pay so much to get into this field.
There will always be room for the smaller, bespoke training provider to provide people for smaller airlines and non-airline commercial operators, and to provide the surge capacity in times of heavy recruiting (and to take the pain in times of zero recruiting!), and to provide a way for those who have no desire to fly professionally to get professional qualifications if they want to.
cparker I don't understand your point. This is a UK-based site. Why should it not discuss the UK situation? The fact that the jobs market is currently more difficult elsewhere is irrelevant to this discussion.
Scroggs