Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
I am currently due to complete my PPL, with a veiw to using it to start on the modular course towards gaining a CPL (No IR or ME). I have read the lasors guide and am slightly confused by the requiremnts my main conclusion is that:
*Before commencing the course, you must have 150 hours total time.
*the actual flying part of the course is 25hrs.
I understand this no problems, am going to start my hours building after getting a share in an aircraft, however lasors states for the ISSUE of a cpl Licence you must have 200 hours. 100 of these must be PIC?? (I hope). Now are the 200 hours independant of the 150 hours PIC prior to commencing the 25hr CPL course? (Ie do you do the course and then do another 200 hrs????)
It may seem like I am being a complete spoon here
Could someone (prefereably who has done the CPL) explain it to me piecemeal with hours requirements in the air, and possible theory requirements.
If you just want to do a CPL and don't think you will ever do an IR then you can do the CPL distance learning course for the 9 exams. Distance courses are available from GTS at Bournemouth (who I'm hoping to go with, assuming I pass the medical on Tuesday!), Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry and Cranfield College at, errr Cranfield. Prices are around the £1,500 mark to which you have to add £55 per exam.
If you think you might do an IR in the next few years then you need really to do the full ATPL course and exams, of which there are 14 (do the CPL and IR exams separately and you end up doing 16 exams and it costs alot more to do the two separate courses for CPL and IR). The courses are normally broken down into two or three sections with a week of revision lessons at the College at the end of each. The revision sessions are timed to be held just before the exams.
To start a CPL flight course you need 150 hours total time. To apply for the issue of a CPL after a successful skills test you need 200 hours total of which 100 hours must be P1(PIC), at least 20 hours must be cross-country as P1 including one flight of 300 nm which includes landing at two other aerodromes. You must also have a Night Qualification.
Since the CPL is 25 hours you really should have about 175 hours/100 hours PIC before you start the course or be prepared to build up the required hours before the skills test.
To do a CPL/IR = more exams than a straight ATPL. Have a look at LASORS to get that picture. 14 exams for an ATPL that will cover you for CPL AND IR.... It is more beneficial time and cost wise to knock off the "ATPL" subjects rather than have duplicated effort on the CPL and then the IR subjects.
Nonsense! There is something called a CPL/IR. Unless I am mistaken there is no 'ATPL' in 'CPL/IR'.
Don't think its me talking the nonsense - and why the extreme reaction?
Look at LASORS! To do the CPL you need the CPL exams or the ATPL exams; to do the IR you need the IR exams or the ATPL exams; to do the ATPL you need the ATPL exams. To do the FI(R) course - flying instructor - you need passes at either CPL or ATPL level. ATPL=14 exams; CPL=9 exams; IR = 7 exams. So, much easier to do the ATPL if your are looking for both a CPL + IR than do them separately, as you pay more (most ATPL courses are about £1,900 whereas CPL + IR as separate courses will be about £3,000).
CPL/IR as a course is, I believe, an integrated course only designed for anyone wanting commercial single pilot operation and does not include the MCC element.
Perhaps "what who me?" is not from Europe, and is not familiar with the JAR ATPL exams? His profile doesn't give much away. In which case his "Nonsense!" comment would make a little more sense, but is not relevant if Winglearner is talking about JAR licenses.
Anyway thanks for that chaps...looking for information and this thread has turned to a dispute!!! .. to reiterate.... I have already read lasors justiciar! I know what it says in there but I was asking for an explanation not a word for word dictation, IF anyone could answer my original question. If gaining a CPL (without IR or ME rating) the course is 25 hrs flying training. 30 Hours to gain a night rating. what is the requirement with regards to theory for CPL and also I am slightly confused over the hours to Apply for the licence, do my 150 hrs needed prior to starting a 25 hr cpl flight training course count or do I have to do a further 200 hrs after I have passed the course with exams????
Further to this I am writing a business plan for the next 5 years to budget the costs for doing a CPL (probably get IR later) could anyone give me an itemised, ball park figure of what is essential with regards to cost???
If you have read LASORS you have the answer! It is the one I gave a couple of days ago: 150 hours total required to start the CPL course and when, having passed to skills test you apply for the licence you must by then have 200 hours or more in total , of which at least 100 hours must be P1. Of those 100 hours P1 at least 20 hours must be cross- country. The cross-country hours must include a flight of 300 nm or more landing at two aerodromes apart from the aerodrome of departure.
You seem possibly to be confused over the difference between the CPL course, which consists of 25 hours flying, and the theoretical study leading to the exams. They are two distinct and separate stages and you need the exams before you start on the CPL course. As you plan to do the IR you probably should do the full ATPL course for the ATPL exams. However, remember that your exams 'count' for the IR for only three years from the date you pass the last ATPL exam. If you think you will do the IR much further down the road than this then you can save time and money by simply doing the CPL course and exams. The CPL on its own is not actually worth too much as about all you will be able to do is to instruct and be paid. You cannot do any (hardly any) public transport work without an IR.
CPL courses are around £4,500 to £5,500 but add say 20% for contingencies. The CPL examiners fee is £600 + you must hire the aircraft for the test - say another £400. The ATPL course will cost about £1900 and you must budget for a total of 4 weeks class work provided by the course provider, so 4 weeks b & b! The exam fees to the CAA are currently £55 per exam paper, of which there are 14 at ATPL level. At least 2 nights staying around the test centre at Gatwick. Building the hours to at least 150 will be as cheep or expansive as you want them to be!
justiciar, I appreciate that you are trying to help but to say again I have read lasors, I have even read the section that you are talking about, however I do not understand it, to keep typing the same words doesnt help.
So to get a CPL with IR rating I would be better off doing the ATPL exams??? if so where does the flying come into this...
Man I feel so lost with all this, If anyone could explain it to me IN BASIC TERMS, so then I can read lasors having at least a basic understanding and knowing what the general rough plan is.
There are two very separate parts to commercial flight training.
The first part is the theoretical exams, which just involve classroom or distance learning study (650 hours, I think), followed by the written exams - no flying involved. These can be either be the CPL exams, for those just wishing to be an instructor etc, the IR exams, for those wishing to have an instrument rating but not be a professional pilot, or the ATPL exams, which are the CPL and IR exams combined. To start the theory study, all you need is an ICAO PPL, for example a JAA PPL.
Once you have passed all the theoretical exams I mentioned above, the second stage is the actual flying. These comprise the 25 hour CPL course, and the 50 hour IR course. These have to be done within 36 months of passing all the theoretical exams, or the exam credits will expire. As you already know, you need 150 hours to start the CPL course and once completed, you need a total of 200 hours to have the licence issued. In answer to your specific question, the 150 hours DO count towards the 200 hours you need for licence issue.
winglearner - I don't know how much clearer you need this to be told, but....
The "standard route" is to get a PPL first. Straight forward, vanilla flavoured PPL.
Then you have a choice - either fly around "building hours" until you have 150 hours of experience in total - or go off to school and start the written examination course (and the vast majority opt for the ATPL examinations [as stated above]).
Some folks would gain the PPL, then go direct to written exam school - then do the hour building (to be 'current' when starting the CPL flying course).
When you have a total of 150 hours and have passed all 14 written examinations - achieved in any order - then you attend a CPL flying course of 25 hours.
If you have passed everything first time you will have taken about twelve months and have a total of 14 written examinations passed, and 177 hours flown (including the CPL flight test).
To apply for the licence you need a total of 200 hours - so you must fly another 23 hours or so to achieve that total, even though you have passed all the requirements.
Hope this helps.
One last comment - welcome to PPRuNe. I notice not many postings have been made in your name. However, whilst reading your messages above, I am reading them as being somewhat condescending and ungrateful to those who have taken the time to reply to you.
One of the problems of the written word is that it does not transmit the emotion of the writer - so I may be 100% wrong when I say that your messages suggest, to me, a tone of ungratefulness and/or attitude.
If I'm right, you should be advised that this will very quickly burn up any sympathy points that you may have from those who have already struggled down the avenues that you are about to take.
Being anything other than receptive to comments and messages sent to you will quickly cost you the potential for gaining answers to your questions in the future.
I wish you well with your studies and with you time on PPRuNe.