Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
and without a degree i wont get a very well paid job to pay for it will i?
If you were to take BA as an example; educational qualitfications needed are 5GCSE (inc maths & english) at grade C; and 2 Alevels at grade C.
Airlines dont select pilots on whether they have degrees.
The most important thing is PERSONALITY. Therefore if you go for an interview at aged 19 with not much to show for yourself- leadership? teamworking? maturity? independence? interpersonal skills? - then youre probably not likely to get the job over a more experienced candidate like a 22yr old graduate.
If you are of a high calibre individual (may be you were head of school? or were a leader at the aircadets/scouts, achieved a duke of edinburgh award etc..) Id say go into it aged 18 because you'd be as competitive as say 22yr old graduate candidates. If not, you might want to take a gap year, as you seem opposed to uni option.
I think you need to go and do some research and speak to some careers advisors, FTOs, pilots etc.
You should look into (the first step of this career path is taking initiative!),
Air Cadets
Voluntary Gliding Schools
Duke of Edinburgh Award
Royal Aeronautical Society Careers Service - so you want to be a pilot 2006 booklet and 'everything aerospace' magazine
Air League Flying scholarships for 17-24yr olds
GAPAN Scholarships
GAP year organisations: World Challenge Expeditions, Operation Rayleigh etc
For Universitites look into UCAS & University Air Squadrons
One of the most important things is to be prepared and not to walk into this blind! 80K+ is a massive investment. If it means having to go to university or having to work for a few years to raise funds, or to achieve your best grades at school; then thats what you might have to do.
The Air Cadets also offer a few Flying Scholarships & the like which would certainly help you toward your PPL; plus they also carry out D of E schemes.
yeah i would like to do my duke of edinburgh award and things like that which will make me stand out have you got any suggestions?
As I've posted before on other threads, the majority of my interview with CTC consisted of questions about my time at University - how I had got involved, what I had done, how what I had done demonstrated teamwork and leadership skills, etc.
There's no point asking "what activities should I take up to make myself look good." Get yourself involved in things you are actually interested in and can take an active part in doing and organising. If I'd come on here a year ago and asked the same question, nobody here would have told me to get on the University Of Warwick Brass Band exec committee, yet I was asked at length about my experiences with this, how I believed it had helped me, how I did different things, and other various questions. Find something you're interested in, find a club or society that shares your interests, and get involved. That's honestly the best way. If D of E is what really appeals to you, then go for it - my girlfriend has done D of E gold and it was a great experience for her, so I know how worthwhile it is. But don't spend ages trekking round hillsides and camping out just because you think it'll make you look better in an interview - you'll come across far better if you've enjoyed it and can talk about it with some enthusiasm and conviction.
There's no "right" way to go about it. I wouldn't have missed out on my experience of University for anything, but if it's not for you there's plenty of other stuff you can do. Even if you do badly at your A-levels, you can still go to college and maybe re-take GCSEs or A-levels there to get up to the acceptable standard.
I'm going to New Zealand in August with a ~£10k student loan to pay off and a £60k bond on top of that. I'm not that rich, but it doesn't really worry me too much - I know it's manageable in the long term. But other people wouldn't dream of doing that. You just have to do what feels right for you. Be aware, though, that should you be in competition for an airline job somewhere down the line and you're up against someone who has had all these experiences and can talk about them, and you've gone straight from school on the back of not-too-good A-levels into a flying school, who do you think is going to look the better candidate?
Sorry if any of this sounds in any way condescending, it's not intended to. Just trying to explain things how I see them having been through a long selection process myself.
Hi Felix,
Have been reading these threads with interest as it is a question that I have asked myself many times. I agree with most of the comments above and for what it's worth I took a four year degree course and then applied for BA sponsorship. 9/11 then got in the way so it came down to deciding: fly and pay for it myself or get another career. You can guess which I chose. Mr HSBC kindly lent me a load of money, I graduated Oxford in November 03 and I have now been flying 757's for about a year. I'm 27.
Of course, it is a highly personal decision and everyone has different influences. I often wonder where I would be now had I not been to University. Have I wasted 4 years? I don't think so as it taught me how to study, how to formulate my thoughts and how to grow up. I agree totally when people say ATPL training is the hardest thing they have ever done: it certainly was for me. I think that University helped me get through it: after all Uni Finals aren't a walk in the park. Two guys started with me at Oxford straight out of school and I am sad to say that they both pulled out: found it too tough. I think the academic experience speaks volumes.
The important message is that this is not a decision to be rushed, irrespective of how keen you are to get going. It is a lot of money to be playing with in your late teens. There are lots of places offering help, many of which have been listed above and you would be wise to look at them all. Take your time and, whatever you do, get the A-levels out of the way first.
All the best
RD
mate, theres a lot of sound advice floating around these pages, and i canonly echo what they say.
I particularly agree with bjkeates about University. There's simply so many opportunities to get involved at Uni that to miss out seems to me a great shame. At university, literally any kind of interests are catered for, and you're bound to find something that both interests you and will better prepare you for later life, whether that be airline orientated or not.
I'm speaking from a position of experience. Currently up in bonny scotland, have joined the University Air Squadron which offer some great opportunities. Am also involved in emergency first aid volunteering at all sort of events which I enjoy, and also gives me good experience of teamwork skills as well as handling abnormal situations. Duke of Edinburgh, acting, whatever it is you're interested in, you'll find someone else who likes it, and you can get involved. Uni really is a place to develop and mature, and is really no longer just about the academic reward.
Speaking of academic reward though, the skills you'll learn in self study, discipline, and quite simply hard graft, will prepare you well for your ATPL studies, and life in general.
Plus, theres a great social side to Uni, and you'll learn more about yourself in social situations and improve socially. I talk about this as I am currently looking at 16 bottles of Carlsberg that I'm about to go get acquainted with my friends having finished my exams today!
I'm in a similar situation. I have just over a year left before my Leaving Cert (Irish equivalent of A- Levels). I've been thinking about university but I don't think I could spend three/four years studying when I would prefer to be flying (even if it is free to go to college in Ireland). I haven't completely ruled out a degree that involves the ATPL theory in England yet. It's always possible to do a part-time or distance learning degree when qualified. Whether it is a waste of money if you don't get an airline job straight after an integrated course, I don't think it is. It may be a kick in the teeth, but there are other job opportunities for you to build experience. And, there are more places to train than just Oxford that are just as good, if not better!
I just hear that oxford is highly recommended and that most airlines take on their graduates! im just coming up to my first year exams and i think im going to muck them up as i havnt been very focused on them. Therefore i am not sure what to do if i do badly! Resit the year again if possible of go elsewhere?
as previously stated, airlinese dont require you to have a degree to work in an airline. however, i dont have the money to go and put myself through flight school. so, i intend to finish university, whilst working in an airline during my summer holidays, so i can build some hours. once i have my degree finished i will hopefully get into a job i like (of course airline related), and pay for myself to become i pilot. i've wanted to be a pilot all my life, but the reality hit me that i dont have the cash! i bit the bullet, and started university. i still want to be a pilot, but ive learnt through my degree i can still incorporate some elements of the aviation industry; eg part of my course is studying sales and marketing, so i can look at how companies like ryanair and easyjet set about marketing and achieving sales! it aint flying, but its very interesting!
Took the aero degree route myself and it has served me very well in terms of paying off the debt acquired from the flight training; however I didn't have to pay tuition fees.
Remember these days you could earn good money working a as plumber, electrician or similar skilled trade, obviously while training for these trades the training pay will be low, but in the long term these have better earning potential than most graduate jobs (without the graduate debt, hence a very good way in my opinion of funding commercial flight training). Remember not all degree subjects will lead to a decent wage.
What I will say is, with the debt from university and a "decent" gradaute job (obvious examples engineering, law, accounting or finance) it is possible to fund pilot training; however if you acquire a large debt from pilot training and lose a medical you will not be able to afford to take on study at a later date.
All of that would be academic if you fail the Class one medical. Before you start any training go and get your inital one from the CAA, it costs £435 and takes a few hours.
I did mine at the end of March and it cost £302. They have now withdrawn the EEG and the chest X-ray, and this is reflected in the reduction in price. I had a 12:30pm slot booking and was on the train home at 15:45pm.
Sorry its taken so long to reply but I was actually sat in Phoenix Sky Habor airport having just completed the single engine phase of my flight training and have just arrived back home in good old blighty. Looks like a few others have been able to give you some pretty good advice too.
From the other posts I see there are a few questions about Oxford you need answering:
Is it like a uni campus? Yes and no. Theres a bar and cafe on campus in Oxford so it kind of follows the same principle.However, there is no where near as much time available during ground school to live like a first year uni student. Classes begin at 8:40am till 4:20pm mon-fri with additional study required most nights for a few hrs. Book a place on the open day to see for yourself.
Oxford has a great reputation? Again there are two sides to this. The view of the major airlines is good at present - BA are a major employer of Oxford students recently. Having said this, the reputations of Cabair, CTC and FTE are just as rosy. The head of recruitment at BA has said in a seminar at Oxford there is no preference between the big 3 schools. This is basically my way of saying dont rule out the others immediately. Go see them all and remember that, when you do go, they will have their best sales pitch prepared for you so try and see through it. Talk to the students that happen to be walking through the corridors at the time. They will tell you the truth such as the old tatty aircraft used for the training that rarely is fully operational, the fact that Oxford are interested in the money only and will try some pretty immoral methods to get more from you and the politics that go on inside the company.
Most airlines take on the graduates from Oxford? No. The fact that you have been trained at one of the major schools will get you through the application stage. The decision is made at interview and skills tests where a degree will not get you any advantage. The only link may be associated with the life skills and interview techniques learned at uni.
In summary of all the great advice floating around in this forum you can probably tell by now there is no corrrect answer, just one thats best for you. If you feel you are ready for 15 months of v. intense training that will test a broad range of your skills go for it. Otherwise, the majority of the people on the Oxford course range in age from 18-30 so you have plenty of time to get into it.
Im about to graduate uni in July, got my finals at the moment and kinda feel like I have missed the boat somewhat.
I entered uni 3 years ago having just completed my PPL and was literally faced with the same decision as you: Uni or ATPL school.
I chose UNI and dont begrudge my experiences one bit, but I do feel as though the grass may have been greener on the other side - I could have been flying 757's by now!
My degree has certainly brought me a huge amount of experience, and ive recently been accepted as an ATCO with Eurocontrol, so who knows, in 10 years time I might be self-financing on the modular route.
If you think you are mature enough, and have the academic (and financial) ability, I say go for it! Get yourself to Oxford, you only live once!
I chose UNI and dont begrudge my experiences one bit, but I do feel as though the grass may have been greener on the other side - I could have been flying 757's by now!
Maybe, but at least you don't have a £60K or more debt round your neck
Bjkeats, serves me right for trusting the CAA's website!!!!!
[quote=Felix Saddler]I just hear that oxford is highly recommended and that most airlines take on their graduates!
Really?!?! this is amazing. Would be interested to speak to some of those poor souls from Oxford that haven't been snapped up and why. It’s not Oxford University but does seem to try and cash in on their image and stature. It’s a flying school based in Oxford. Nothing more nothing less. The glossy sales brochure that Oxford send you is very nice and pretty but it doesn’t get you a job. It’s a tough old game and there will be thou thousands of other low hour chaps and chapesses out there that you will be competing with.
IMHO....... decide which pile you want to be in (either uni and normal job or non-uni and the airlines). Spend your money carefully and get to the top of that pile by working hard and showing that you know the industry and want to be there. Not just showing that mummy and daddy have the biggest bank balance. It'll look more impressive in the interview situation if you have worked hard, grafted and done it off your own back because you had the b*llox to do it. Have other interests outside of aviation so as to be a rounded individual and someone that has something to say for themselves.
Ultimately, flight training is flight training. Except that Oxford will charge you £20k more than everybody else and give you an over inflated ego of yourself. Put this on a flightdeck with a skipper who has 5000hrs and you might look stupid.
Thanks guys, you have all been an exeptional help to me, and im very grateful for that. Im still not sure what i will do, however i will wait until my AS results come out and then see from there. I hope to continue on to my full A-Level and achieve at the least 3 B's in maths physics and chemistry, however my real target is around 2 A's & B! (i love tht smiley) If im greatly successful and achieve these results i will then probably go on to uni and get a degree. However in the mean time i will try and get a p/t job at my local airport, and try to fund myself a few lessons to see if flying really is for me, if it is and im sure it is i will go ahead and fund myself a PPL. Then, by that time, if i do go to uni when im finished i will get a decent job and apply to a flight school. thanks for the help guys, do you think i have the right idea!! O and not forgetting the RAF and the UNI squadrons!!
Thanks,
Felix
Last edited by Felix Saddler : 16th May 2006 at 21:54.
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