Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies)A forum for those on the steep path to that coveted professional licence. Whether studying for the written exams, training for the flight tests or building experience here's where you can hang out.
Nothing says you have to go to university. You have every chance of making a good living with just A-levels, and you might well get into aviation - though now is not a good time!
This whole question is really about how you want to play your life. Do you want to gamble at the high stakes table, and put everything on getting a job in an airline as soon as possible, or are you more cautious, preferring to equip yourself with more general employability in case aviation doesn't work out? It's your choice, but remember that if you choose the gambler's route and lose, you could well suffer the consequences for the rest of your working life.
It is a fact that most of those who would like to fly for a living never make it. Some don't get past the first hurdle, some fail the medical (you have taken a medical, haven't you?), some find that they can't fly, some find that the weight of study for ATPL is too much for them, some run out of money before they're qualified, and some just never find a job even after completing all the training. In the RAF, just 2 or 3% of those that apply become pilots. I imagine that the statistics are somewhat similar for civilian aviation wannabes. That's a hell of a gamble!
Right now the aviation market is at a low ebb. I think it is about to turn, but there are a lot of fully-qualified pilots out there waiting to be mopped up by the industry. It could be that now is a bloody good time to enter training - as long as you can guarantee passing! If you can't, and believe me - you can't, you would be well advised to get some back up qualifications in the bank.
just put in my story... Ive done my 4 AS (with decent results) and starting 3 A Levels this year...I am fortunate enough to have a dad who was willing to pay for training. I just passed my PPL skill test yesterday(!!) and have begun my wait for the license (a long laborious one, i heard)... If I want to, I can scrap the degree and enroll on the ATPL course now streight after A Levels...after a lot of reading PPRuNe, thinking and talking with parents, I have decided i'll be doing a degree.
Oh I'm sorry if you thought I was being negative, poor pedracer.
Sort it out mate, you asked for advice and people are being frank and honest with you. If you don't like what they say, you're in the wrong business cos you'll take knocks all the way through training and getting a job. Well most of us will, those who will breeze straight in to BA should be ok.
Thanks for the responses... I think i am erring towards not doing the degree with the hope that the industry will be back on the up when I commence my flight training , and the costs of doing both the degree and the training without being employed sound a bit much, especially with the tutoring fees revamp just as i go into Uni... However im definitely not commiting to anything as of yet because I know full well that taking the wrong decision could cause me to fall flat on my face...
I have not had a medical, ive just started my A Levels, but would it be worth having one? AFAIK I am fit and healthy and my eyesight is very good (and correctable i would guess)...
I am six foot two and growing rapidly, some people say I would be to tall to make a pilot? are they right? Is there a limit, and what is it?
First of all a warning about what I'm about to post. Don't think for a moment that I'm saying you shouldn't worry about your education. And I firmly support everything Scroggs has said on this subject.
However, just to give you another slightly different input, here's something I posted on another thread about Uni or Oxford's APP. But it only applies if you've got the desire, the talent, the intellectual ability, THE MONEY and you just will not envisage doing anything else with your life.
But if you have those things, then maybe you should take all the advice with a pinch of salt and just listen to yourself - all at your own risk of course. This is a very dangerous course of action, for gamblers only.
GB68c
If you're sure flying is really, really, really the only thing you want to do with your life - then in my opinion you should get on with it.
What's the point of having a back-up plan if using it will just make you wish you were flying?
Have you noticed how the really successful people in life usually have risked everything, ie, taken a gamble in life, and didn't have a back up plan? Do you think Madonna had a back up plan?
Remember, while you're at Uni dreaming of flying, there will be others of your age flying fighters in the airforce and starting on their careers in the airlines. Will you be envious?
Also, if you finish your degree, then go to OATS, and for some reason it doesn't work out, what brilliant career is your slightly out of date geography degree going to bring you? Will it bring you fulfillment in life?
My views are probably somewhat controversial, and not what someone of my advancing years should be telling you. They only apply if you're 100% committed to flying as a way of earning a living, complete with all its hardships and frustrations.
It may mean initially on leaving OATS you'll have to get some crappy job just to pay the bills while you search for a flying position. At that point you may question your decision.
Life has a way of deflecting us from what we really want to do. At fear of becoming too philisophical, I think it was Proust who said "most of us end up doing what we're second best at". Think about it.
If you start your training now at your tender age(!), by the time you're twenty five, you could potentially be a jet Captain. Training Captain a couple of years after that, management(!), who knows? And still young enough to go back to uni if you eventually decide it's not for you.
I know from my own life experience that on the whole, parents, teachers, well meaning friends etc. will always advise you to take the less risky option. The only person you should listen to is YOURSELF. And that includes me. All this is only my opinion based on my own life experiences.
Another caveat - if you take the flying option, you'll be giving up your youth to a certain extent. Flying training is demanding hard graft. You won't have time to drink much and your social life beyond the other guys/some gals on your course will be zilch. When you get a flying job, you'll end up spending a lot of your young life working with people much older than you. You won't have much in common. They may well appear grumpy and jaded. There'll be no office parties. You'll have to work your ass off.
So there you have it. You want an exciting life? Then you must be prepared to take risks. You want a safe fallback? Then do that. But just remember there'll be others out there already starting to climb the ladder in their chosen vocation. They'll be your manager or trainer or Captain when you finally finish with your "safe" option.
The choice is yours.
Postscript to this: of course, those other guys may continue to be Captain, trainer, manager while you end up with no qualifications if you fail to make the grade, or the cards don't go your way.
The choice you make all depends on what kind of person you are, and what kind of life you want. But remember, the most important thing is, IT'S YOUR LIFE - don't let anyone make your choices for you, and don't chose something you think will please your parents or girlfriend or friends.
In the end, your the only one who'll have to live with your decision day in, day out, so CHOSE YOUR OWN PATH.
Errrm Mamximum m8 whilst we all appreciate that we are just giving our two penies worth and that no one is necessarily right.
Don't you think that it a touch irresponsible to write something like:
Quote:
What's the point of having a back-up plan if using it will just make you wish you were flying?
To some one at the junction where pedracer now stands. He/she clearly is not the sort of person who like me and I assume you, knew aged 10 what I was going to do and how I was going to do it.
If I was to take off not having checked the met, the tech log or F700, the NOTAMS or my task just because I really wanted to you would call me a fool in the accident investigation. If Pedracer wants to throw caution to the wind let him at least know the odds say that 97% don't get from where he is into a jet at 250hrs and some are still charter and freight m8s earning less than those who work in the local pub 20 years down the line.
The simple reason why he/she should not do anything without a back up plan is possibly so that they don't run the risk of becoming an alcoholic aged 25 when they are 50k in debt, with no qualifications other than for flying, in a world that really doesn't give a monkeys, havning believed that they could one day be a Concorde Pilot 'cos some guy on a website said if I wanted it enough I would get it.
I acknowledge that you have given the choice at the end but it is a bit like inviting a kid into a sweet shop, telling him that its bad or his teeth but saying that he can have whatever he wants.
It would be great if it were a meritocracy but it isn't. It is not about what we want or we would all be astronauts, olympic gold medalists, rock singers, or if we were really blessed by God himself Apache pilots
There has to be dedication, yes. There has to be raw ability, yes. There also has to be, by far the largest factor luck. There are lots of people out there who are more than able to perform the task but it doen't mean that the airlines know or care. How can you demonstrate your ability when you can't get an interview for love or money. I would in all honesty cut my left one of for an interview. Not for a job just for the interview.
A rotary m8 of mine has 1600hrs TT. 1200hrs Army Lynx of which 300hrs was NVG and over 800 of those hours was flow on operations day and night in Bosnia-Herzgovina. Run of the mill stuff in mountainous terrain up to 10 000' varying from -30C to 35C.
On applying for the job flying Police helicopters in the Peak district he was told that he lacked mountain flying experience and that he had to appreciate that the Peak district went over 2000' in places and it wasn't felt that he had had this sort of experience in the UK.
You could be the best person pilot in the world and still not even get an interview if you don't happen to be in the right place at the right time. Please by all means encourage youngsters to take different routes but it is criminal to encourage them to do what ever they want if they really want it or all our children will quit school, uni,etc and enter pop idol working in McDonalds waiting for that agency to ring up and offer them a duet with Madonna.
vortex thing I have known since I was 8 years old that I wanted to be a pilot because I was always travelling with my dad as he works for BA as a cabin service director so travelling has played a huge part of my life and there is nothing more than id rather do than become a pilot. I know what I want to do I just dont know how to go about doing it
Vortex, I appreciate your concern, I understand what you're saying, but I don't feel the shame. Sorry but there you go.
I'm just trying to give a different perspective, with plenty of health warnings scattered throughout. Anyway, as you say, I think pop idol's doing far more damage than me.
Also, I firmly believe people should be treated as adults.
I say again, I fully appreciate your concern, but against that, I still go by everything I said. It's an opinion I've formed from my own life experiences.
Vortex, as far as I read it, Max was trying to put an alternative point of view to the plethora of 'take the safe route' posts on this thread. I reckon that's fair enough, for without a range of points of view to balance against each other, how is Pedracer to come to a decision that is right for him? It's inevitable that the views we all put forward reflect our own experience and prejudices. Max's point was, as he said himself, a bit controversial but a perfectly valid contribution to the discussion.
The one thing that we haven't really touched on is what Pedracer should do now, while he's making up his mind which road to take. My advice would be to visit a number of the flying schools and universities that he might consider joining, and finding out (from the students rather than the staff) what life is like for them, and what they feel their prospects are. I would also arrange to do the GAPAN aptitude tests (www.gapan.org, I think) and, if he's leaning towards flying rather than a degree, go and get a Class 1 medical. When visiting universities, choose those with a University Air Squadron and try and visit a UAS to get a different perspective on flying training - remembering that joining a UAS implies no commitment to joining the RAF!
There's lots more, but these would be a good start!
If I were at zero hours and looking to start somewhere (assuming I was one of the 99.9% who are unable to find sponsorship) I would:
(1) Spend a hundred quid or so on a trial lesson, just to make sure flying really was for me. I’ve heard of one or two punters who turned up for their trial lesson absolutely convinced they would be the next Chuck Yeager, only to redecorate the inside of a 152 at the first sign of turbulence.
(2) Spend £150 (or whatever they’re charging these days) on GAPAN’s aptitude tests, just to make sure I’d have a realistic chance of employment after training. Have a look at: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ighlight=gapan
(3) Go to Gatwick and blow £400 on a class 1 medical, without which I have no chance of flying commercially.
Admittedly I would be £650 lighter for the 1 hour in my log book, but I would have filled in some pretty significant blanks in the process.
Pedracer, I'm not going to lecture you on which way I think you should go as I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to your question, instead I'll tell you what happened to me and a few bits of information I've picked up along the way.
At 18 I faced the same problem, Uni or flying, I did'nt have the money to go flying so I went to Uni, after the first year however things had changed, I had managed to twist the arms of many family members to give me money and I wasnt enjoying the Uni course (astrophysics, the most difficult and far out subject ever!) So I went off to OAT and got my fATPL and started the job hunt, unfortunately at that time the job market was starting to nose dive and even though I reached the final interview stages for Brittannia and Aer Lingus I didnt get anywhere. I was left with no money, no flying job and the banks were knocking on my door wanting their money back and I discovered that you can't get any decent paying job with A levels so I was forced to take work in a warehouse.
After building up some money I turned to America were the pilot market was very good and I was in the final stages of agreeing a deal to be a flight instructor with Sierra Academy near San Fran when 9/11 happened which needless to say killed off that plan which left me back at square one.
Now at 26 I have decided to go back to Uni to get a degree, I've not taken this decision lightly but I have taken advice from people along the way such as one of the pilot recruitment officers at Aer Lingus, when I was unsuccessful I asked what I should do next in regard to re-applying to Aer Lingus at a later date, he told me that the job market was not looking good for the next few years and that I should go and get a degree, I asked what subject should I take he said it doesnt matter just go and get a degree. Then I met a man in America who had been a captain on A320's on over $80,000 per year with a wife, 3 kids and a big mortgage, after 9/11 he wasnt flying A320's no longer and with no other qualifications he was working in a B&Q type hardware store just to pay the bills.
So I have decided to go and get that degree because I've seen the nasty side of the pilot job market and even if in the next few years there is a big pilot shortage and we all get our dream jobs I don't want to end up like the poor A320 captain when in 20 years time the next Bin Laden decides to fly airliners into what ever replaces to twin towers.
What ever you decide to do I agree with Scroggs, look and explore all your options, when dealing with flying schools be clear on what you are going to get for your money the pilot world is full of empty promises. If you choose Uni pick a subject which you enjoy and have a natural interest in but at the same time make sure it will provide a decent career if the need arises and remember Uni is only 3 years, believe me it passers very quickly, I've not flown in over 4 years (I still can't afford to) and it seems only yesterday that I was doing my IR.
Oh, some info I get from the UAS (I contacted them to see if I could join but I'm too old and over qualified) was that the RAF now gets upwards of 70% of its pilots from the UAS.
Like I said there is no right or wrong answer and different people with different experiences will give you different advice but I do think that a back up can prove very useful whether that be a degree or something else thats up to you.
I hope my story has helped highlight some of the pitfalls of trying to become a pilot and I wish you the best of luck with which ever path you decide to follow.
thanks for the words of wisdom Im getting closer to my decision and at the weekend think im gonna sit down and have a really good hard think about this I got a flying lesson last year for my 16th birthday and loved every minute of it. It took me by surprise to see the difference between flight simulator and the real thing. I joined a virtual airline about 6 months ago and have managed to clock up about 100 hours flying time virtually which I think is pretty impressive. When you talk of a UAS is that short for University Air Squadron??
thanks to all of you you've been really great with this
The decision is up to you. I personally took the high road and went straight to university after college. I now have a nice shiny Aerospace engineering degree.
Personally i feel that i have missed out on some years of flying but i reallity i feel that i can now push on.
My best friend didn't go to university and worked towards his commercials steadily. Although I was behind him in terms of hours and licence i am steadily catching him up.
I don't mean to preach to you that this is the right choice or that university makes you a better person but i will say that i've finally cracked the studying and teamwork aspect of work. A tool invaluable in MCC and Atpl Groundschool. Whatever your decision good luck.
I am starting to really think that I should go to university however it won't be a very good one as I am only doing 2 a levels. Just out of interest are you able to apply to the RAF while you are still at university and within the university air squadron and if you were to get rejected could you apply again??? same applies really to any kind of flying commercial or non can you reapply at any time?? and more importantly what are the chances of you then getting accepted or being looked at???
1) The point of going to uni is to get a degree - the so called academic "standard" of the uni is relatively unimportant, it the end qualification that counts. Really try to get one which is affiliated to one of the UAS's (most are, even if it means contacting the UAS yourself, as they can't attend all fresher's fairs to recruit).
2) You certainly can and will be encouraged to apply to the RAF if you are sucessfull in getting on to a UAS. Certainly my former UAS had the policy that to stay on for the full 3-year term, you had to be commited well on the way to an application the the Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre (OASC) at RAF Cranwell, or have already applied at the end of your second year.
3) If you are rejected by OASC (or the UAS for that matter), you can try again, I believe with a one year gap.
For the record my A-levels consisted a C (and 2 worse!..), and I had 3 full years on the UAS, and was sucessful on my second attempt at OASC, after completing my degree (2:2)...
God luck, whatever you do...
Charlie
Last edited by Hot Charlie : 26th September 2003 at 09:07.
) and have begun my wait for the license (a long laborious one, i heard)... If I want to, I can scrap the degree and enroll on the ATPL course now streight after A Levels...after a lot of reading PPRuNe, thinking and talking with parents, I have decided i'll be doing a degree.
Back up plans
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