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-   -   Microlight Crash in Scotland - 2 Fatalities (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/485251-microlight-crash-scotland-2-fatalities.html)

10W 13th May 2012 07:40

Microlight Crash in Scotland - 2 Fatalities
 
Notified at work about this yesterday but unable to post till made public.

Sadly 2 have been killed when a Microlight which departed from Perth bound for Glenforsa crashed about 100' from the summit of Ben More near Crianlarich. The wreckage and crew were discovered by hillworkers but the crash was unfortunately fatal. It is understood that the aircraft left Perth with 3 others but no further information is publicly available yet.

BBC News - Stirlingshire mountain microlight crash kills two men

fisbangwollop 13th May 2012 08:23

Very sad news..:(. I helped run a safety day last year for the BMAA at Scottish Air Traffic Control centre......it always amazed me why most of the microlight brigade never bother speaking to ATC, they just seem to do their own thing on the microlight frequency.......during my talk I tried to convince these guys that ATC were here as friends and here to help.......after the event I recieved numerous emails from some of the pilots saying the first thhing they would do next time they flew was speak to ATC........Now I am not trying to say in this instance talking to ATC would have altered the outcome of this one incident but lets just say if things started to go wrong at an early stage a quick call to ATC may have in some shape or form offered some help. (it certainally would have saved us bit of time and effort yesterday in trying to track down where this aircraft had come from)... So PLEASE next time you fly over inhospitable terrain consider giving Scottish Information a call.....we really are human and indeed are here to assist in what ever way possible. Once again from myself and the rest of Scottish ATC condolences to families and friends to those that have lost a loved one or special friend...:(

'India-Mike 13th May 2012 09:11

I had a busy day instructing out of Glasgow yesterday - Ben More was resplendent all day in the excellent visibility and fairly high cloudbase. There were showers but not over the hills to the north, more running west/east along the Clyde. Turbulence only really less than moderate over the low ground to the lee of hills to the west, and then only below 800'. Fabulous day weather-wise yesterday. What a real shame - exchanged pleasantries at Perth a couple of weeks ago with a couple of the microlighters from there.

dont overfil 13th May 2012 09:53

FBW,

Spoke to you briefly yesterday on the phone. Very sad indeed.

The subject of using a chat frequency rather than a proper information frequency was brought up at a recent safety evening. At least one of the deceased was present. As you say it may not have made any difference in this case but it was a total fluke that they were found so soon.

Had it not been for the hill walkers the search may have still been on.

India Mike,

Mixed reports about the level of turbulence. I believe it was OK at 7000ft the rest of the group used but there were reports of pretty rough rides by other flyers.

D.O.

Gwynge 13th May 2012 12:03

I'm a long-term microlighter and I use the radio as little as possible. It may be because microlighters are often brought up in farmer's fields and therefore have no in-built familiarity with the radio from day one or it may just be that microlight flying is different. Much as hang-gliding or paragliding is different. For my regular flying, from a farm strip, talking to an ATC is just extra work I don't want. There is no benefit. If flying over water I use the radio for safety purposes and were I flying over mountainous regions I might do for similar safety reasons. Often I fly with others and might use the illegal "chat" frequency for safety purposes as inter-group communication.

I wouldn't object to using a transponder (so that I can be seen) which I think would provide a deal of benefit with almost zero workload however I would only voluntarily do it on 2 conditions:
1. The technology is brought up to date. £1500 50's technology is a nonsense and I will not subscribe to it. These things should be a fraction of that price and should use a low powerer sensible modern technology.
2. The transponder data is not used for enforcement or prosecution.

gasax 13th May 2012 12:52

I was flying yesterday about 40 miles north of their track. The turbulence below 4000 was pretty bad. At 6000 ft the wind was 35 kts over the high ground whic would have made a pretty strong headwind for a weight shift. There was also quite a lot of thermal activity and large areas of intermittent wave.

To the west of Braemar I got down to 2000ft and a little less, but could only do it by slowing down and being very careful of areas of rotor.

They were quite a way south of there but around Ben More I would expect the conditions would be pretty similar. None of our local weight shifts were flying but that was down to the gusty and fairly strong wind.

All the radio would have done is add questions, perhaps start a search or be a distraction (sorry fishbang but you do come a long way third in my order of priorities).

From my viewpoint it was a pretty rough day over the hills and needed care. But it was bright and sunny and with care why not?

fisbangwollop 13th May 2012 12:56

DO......I agree, a total fluke they were found when they were, to be honest probablly not very long after the accident.......lets just imagine if the accident had been survivable and no one reported them missing for some time after.....how long on a snow covered mountain would they have survived without help???

Sorry to bark on about this but please guys in future consider talking to ATC....maybe one day you will be glad you did.

mad_jock 13th May 2012 13:05

fis you wil never get the microlight boys to speak to you on the radio without a complete change in culture starting with the instructors and working its way down.

I know an ATCO down south who is also an RT examinor who even went round all his local clubs doing free RT courses and tests. I will admit he was motivated because it helped him having a known traffic enviroment in class G while trying to get his CAT aircraft in under vectors.

Even with free courses and test they still wouldn't speak to him. The fixed wing instructors in scotland teach the students to speak to you. I suspect the microlight instructors don't.

If you crack the instructors the students will follow.

'India-Mike 13th May 2012 13:18

How good are microlight radios? My observation (and it is just that, an observation) is that they use hand-held ICOMs or similar, fixed on the frame somewhere. What's the range like? I've tried to use an ICOM in the past as a standby radio and the range was I reckon about 10 miles from 2000 feet, if that.

It really was a beautiful day for flying though, and that was the only context of the weather obs in my earlier post - not trying to make any analysis at all.

Jan Olieslagers 13th May 2012 13:23

I am using exactly that setup: a handheld Icom A6 sliding onto a bracket on the dashboard. I have no trouble communicating with Brussels information even at 50 NM from Brussels, from 1500' AGL or even lower. But must admit I do not know where they have antennae and/or repeaters.

The critical thing however is the antenna, and AFAIK microlight radio setups do not need to be checked or authorised. Mine certainly never was, and I believe it can never be officially certified.

Jan Olieslagers 13th May 2012 13:42

Don't know to what degree it is official, but microlighters often use 123,425 MHz as a default frequency. One place where I know this is done is is EBLN Liernu ulmodrome, which does not have a published frequency. I believe this kind of behaviour can be observed at certain ulmodromes in Germany and France, too.

andy munro 13th May 2012 13:44

"Chat Frequency"
 
It is worth remembering the environment that 'most' microlight/flexwing training takes place, i.e. farm strips where there is no need, or legal requirement, to use the radio. I totally believe that it is good practice to use the radio whenever appropriate and definately not as a "chat frequency". In my opinion, this is one area that needs addressing and I think that competent use of the radio should be a mandatory part of all flying training. I remember many years ago being sent solo on my first cross country by my instructor with no radio as he didn't believe they weren't necessary, how short sighted! Only my opinion of course.

dont overfil 13th May 2012 13:47

Microlight 129.825

D.O.

xrayalpha 13th May 2012 14:27

Mad Jock and India Mike,

Come and visit us at Strathaven sometime.

We will let you look at what a range of modern microlights look like, and take you up for a flight - free of charge.

All in the interests of you seeing just what you are sharing the sky with.

Yes, many microlights - particularly weightshifts - have hand-held Icoms. Nothing wrong with that, they actually work pretty well. Although quite a few now have "proper" fitted dash-mounted radios.

Quite a few also have Mode S transponders too!

Speed-wise, UK weightshift microlights rule the world. The current world record holder is a GT450 - at 99mph (statute) - and the Quik is meant to be faster and the QuikR even quicker.

So even a 35kt headwind is not the hurdle it was when my wee Flash 2 alpha crossed the USA at an average airspeed of 50mph.

Why the hand-held radios? To get inside the weight limits for certification - based on an empty airframe plus occupants and fuel - a removeable hand-held is ideal. Then its weight doesn't count! It is more things like aerial location and wiring that cause problems, rather than type of radio.

Why most hand-helds illegal? Because the CAA didn't replace the approvals chap when he headed to Europe and Europe "forgot" to add hand-helds to their list of items they could approve. Aaaargh!

Why do some microlight instructors not use radios - well, some do not have radio licences. An FRTOL is not necessary for a NPPL microlight.

Also, in a weightshift, it is impossible to reach the dash from the back seat, and it is really hard to work a radio to change frequencies with thick winter gloves on.

Again, come for a flight with us and see what is what.

Chat frequencies? Can mean many things. 123.45 is meant to be very popular with some people - must be, because the CAA warn everyone not to use it as such!

"Chat" might also be used to mean a common frequency - such as the microlight one - which all agree to stay on, while one nominated person gets their fingers frozen changing frequencies to communicate with various agencies on their behalf and then report back to the group.

Let's get rid of "them and us" and get a bit of understanding here.

And if people still want to learn, a good point made at the safety day at Prestwick was upload a photo of your aircraft to G-INFO so controllers can get on the web and find out what a ABC123 registered GABCD looks like and what colour/s it is.

Could be helpful if searching the Scottish wildnerness. (rather than the invasion of privacy some see it as)

xrayalpha 13th May 2012 14:35

Dear Andy,

Welcome to Pprune.

Microlight schools can be found at North Weald - flying with Jet Provosts etc; or at Sywell, one of the biggest and busiest GA airfield in the UK,; or, closer to home, at Perth, where there is commercial flight training going on as well as it being Scotland's biggest GA field.

In fact, microlights can be found at almost every type of airfield in the UK that you will find GA, with the exception of major commercial airports such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester etc. And usually for the same reason you don't get GA at Heathrow -because of capacity issues and cost.

You can also find GA types flying from fields - such as the farmer on Collonsay who can't park his Cessna 172 on the island's airfield! - or many LAA homebuilt types.

Most of us want our flying - whatever type (jets, twins, SEPs or microlights) - to be affordable. So if you only are allowed to fly day VFR, why pay the cash to operate from an expensive radar-served airport?

Nothing worng with operating out of a farmer's field - and of course just because you have taken off from one doesn't mean that is the only type you can fly to!

swopiv 13th May 2012 14:38

This is a very sad incident indeed. My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those involved. I don't know why this thread has turned towards a discussion on radio frequency use, but there is no 'chat' frequency. The microlight frequency is used in a similar way to safetycom.
However, this is all irrelevant, as the aircraft in question was apparently on the appropriate frequency at the time. It is further irrelevant because I highly doubt that the frequency selected had any bearing whatsoever on this incident. That being said, I am a microlight pilot and I talk to Scottish Info (or the appropriate ATC) whenever I am on a cross country. Many of my fellow pilots do the same. Flying in the local area is a bit different, and for trips round the borders, most will just stay on microlight frequency.
As for radio range, it is the antenna installation that matters. When I first bought my aircraft, I temporarily used the handheld icom with the small rubber antenna, and got a range of perhaps 8-12 miles at 2000'. I now have a kingpost mounted antenna (same radio), and can easily get 50+ miles. I often listen out on Scottish or Edinburgh Approach, and the worst quality radio transmissions all seem to come from spamcans and the like.

Crash one 13th May 2012 14:42

I think there is far too much confusion over frequencies. All of which is perfectly legal.
Frinstance, I can depart Kingsmuir in deepest East Fife on Safetycom, then switch to Leuchars Mil or Scottish or Fife depending on whether I think the Air force may be a problem/weekdays/weekend. Fife training/para dropping. Anyone else can do the same.
So we have several a/c in the same area talking to several different people. How can this be called "communication"? Perhaps with my inexperienced 200 or so hrs I should know better? What is the view? Fisbang, thank you for your excellent service, but who was the PA28 talking to that closely crossed my path a few months ago? Leuchars (10nm away) said nothing, OCAS I agree, Injun territory, watch yr back & keep yr powder dry & all that was the advice I've had. But, who should I be talking to & shouldn't everyone else be as well?
I know it would involve even more regulation but could there not be some sort of sector freq that everyone "should" be on? Or am I confusing the issue?

'India-Mike 13th May 2012 14:51

Don't get me wrong - I have no 'them' and 'us' when it comes to microlights. See and avoid has worked well for me to the north of the Glasgow zone in particular. I'm not bothered by those not on R/T OCAS. They're quite entitled to skirt CAS without talking to the controlling authority. I'm on 'your' side there.

In the 4 years or so I've been instructing here (Glasgow and Prestwick) the microlighters have indeed operated as above - and as I say I personally don't have a problem with that. But recently I've heard more of them using R/T, particularly around the GLA class D. So they're 'integrating' more with the 'rest' of us. Standard of R/T is generally poor, but so what? It'll come with practice - and of course it's not just the microlighters with poor R/T.

I eavesdropped on microlight groundschool at Perth a few weeks ago during a tea break with my examiner, and was very impressed on the knowledge and understanding of weather that the instructor was passing on to his students and remember thinking 'no wonder these guys can operate up here safely'.

Perhaps the issue is we're not filing VFR flight plans in Scotland for what, after all, are flights over largely remote and inaccessible areas, especially if we get injured. I'm guilty of that myself when flying privately. I walk the hills and have often wondered how I could get off one if even only slightly injured, in the dark, in rubbish weather. If presented with a choice, radio or file a plan, I'd go for the latter up here.

FERRYAIR 13th May 2012 14:52

This accident happened Friday 11th ( according to Press release ).

Police attend microlight incident


Published on Friday 11 May 2012 20:44


Police are dealing with an incident involving a microlight plane at a mountain range.
The incident happened at Ben More, near Crianlarich, Stirlingshire, at around noon.
A Central Scotland Police spokesman said inquiries were at a very early stage.
He said: "Central Scotland Police are currently dealing with a microlight incident at Ben More in Crianlarich. The incident occurred at around midday."
Police have not yet revealed details of who was onboard or their condition.


Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald

fisbangwollop 13th May 2012 14:58

XRAYALPHA..

And if people still want to learn, a good point made at the safety day at Prestwick was upload a photo of your aircraft to G-INFO so controllers can get on the web and find out what a ABC123 registered GABCD looks like and what colour/s it is.

That was myself that said that at the safety day.......on the Scottish Information Sector we have access to the GINFO Web site and yes indeed with so many new micro types appearing every year its good to be able to look at a picture of the aircraft we are speaking to.......I also think it a good idea if it's a flexwing calls me then on initial contact say you are a flexwing microlight rather than just microlight.


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