Issue converting an old CAA PPL to EASA PPL

[antiseptic]

I have a CAA PPL issued in 1992, but stopped flying from 1999 until a few weeks ago. I have recently undertaken refresher training and passed a proficiency test.

However, since I have an old CAA PPL there are no Certificates of Test or Certificates of Revalidation pages. The examiner has given me a copy of my Examiners Report showing I have passed, but technically it seems I can't exercise my CAA PPL privileges since there is no page in the license which can be stamped with the certificate.

Hence he has told me to simply apply now to the CAA to convert my CAA PPL to a new EASA one - no problem with me, I can wait until it's all gone through.

The problem is, the CAA's web page on conversion says they require "a certified copy of the Certificates of Test/Revalidation page of your current license".

Is there anyone out there who's come across this issue? Will they accept a certified copy of the Examiners report instead?

Thanks!

[Flyingmac]

Give them your licence number and ask them to send you the relevant page. They sent me three. It's headed Rating-Certificate of Revalidation.


Do NOT give up your UK PPL.

[antiseptic]

Many thanks Flyingmac, much appreciated.

[xrayalpha]

As I understand it:

Come next Easter.......(to be confirmed!)

If you want to fly an aircraft on a Certificate of Airworthiness (i.e. a Cessna or Piper) you will need an EASA licence.
This is because CofA aircraft are in Annexe 1 of EASA's regs and from next Easter-ish you will need an EASA licence to fly an EASA aircraft.
Your "Group A" licence is a UK one, not an EASA one.

Of course, an EASA licence also requires an EASA medical!

Your - now revalidated - UK CAA licence allows you to fly EASA Annexe 1 AND EASA Annexe 2 aircraft, until the rules change.
But after then you will be restricted to Bleriot monoplanes, Spitfires, homebuilts and three-axis microlights! (Annexe 2 covers basically those on a Permit to Fly: ie. historic aircraft, warbirds, homebuilts and microlights)

You will, of course, be able to self-certify your medical online for the UK licence but not the EASA one.

One option, which I recommend to all, is to get both a LAPL and your "Annexe 2" licence (which could also be an NPPL SSEA for other readers).

The quirk about the LAPL is that it is for life but the currency requirements have to be met before each flight, rather than on the signing day every two years. So if your LAPL lapses you can use the "Annexe 2" licence on a home-built to re-activate it.

As far as I know, the CAA will now only re-issue "old" PPLs with a Annexe 2 restriction, even though all this is only meant to come in in 2018.

Hence why most GA instructors just say: get an EASA licence.

[460]

Caution,
This is a game where precision with terms pays dividends.

There are no 'EASA Annex1' aircraft.
Instead:
There are 'EASA aircraft' & 'non-EASA Aircraft'.

Annex II (of the Basic Regulation) contains details of which aircraft are 'non-EASA'.
All the rest are 'EASA aircraft'.

Annex I of that regulation is about essential requirements for airworthiness.

[BillieBob]

xrayalpha: You deserve some sort of award. Seldom have I seen such an ill-informed and confusing answer to a question that was never asked. Whatever it is that you're drinking, I should take more water with it.

[MrAverage]

I think, with a 1992 licence, you would have had a log book stamp confirming your last revalidation/renewal. I've done a few of these lately and I just issue a certificate annotated with the pilot's name and reference number. I'm just glad I kept a few of the generic blank certificates............

[xrayalpha]

BillieBob,

My apologies if you think I was off on a tangent.

The OP asked how to get his original licence reissued, and also said he had been advised just to get an EASA SEP instead.

There are other options, however. I personally think he should do both.

The licence stuff is complete chaos, and I have personal experience of the CAA and some light aircraft examiners not actually knowing what the rules are.

Take the CAA page on what is an EASA aircraft: What is an EASA aircraft? | UK Civil Aviation Authority

Seems simple.... and then you get the final sentence! So you should always keep a UK licence if you ever had one, just in case you want one of those particular aircraft!

*******
If you hold a UK national licence, you will be able to fly UK-registered non-EASA aircraft, as long as the aircraft type is covered by the ratings included in your licence. A UK national licence will not permit you to fly EASA aircraft.

I hold a UK national licence... I hold an EASA licence...
...can I fly EASA aircraft?
No, you will need an EASA licence instead. Yes, as long as you hold the appropriate rating on your licence
...can I fly non-EASA aircraft?
Yes, as long as you hold the appropriate rating on your licence and the aircraft is registered in the UK Yes, as long as you hold the appropriate rating on your licence and the aircraft is registered in the UK

For example: The Cessna 172 is an EASA aircraft. The Tiger Moth is a non-EASA aircraft. Both are single engine piston aircraft. So if you hold an EASA licence such as the PPL(A) or LAPL(A) that allows you to fly with a single-engine piston rating, then you can fly both the Cessna 172 (EASA) and the Tiger Moth (non-EASA). However, if you hold a non-EASA national licence, such as the UK NPPL(SSEA), then you can only fly the Tiger Moth.

However, in order to fly certain non-EASA aircraft you will need specific UK national type ratings, which can only be issued onto a UK national licence and not onto an EASA licence.

*********************

Then there is the Licence Conversion Table: Conversion table: UK and JAR to EASA licences | UK Civil Aviation Authority

which points out that some national licences - like the OP's PPL (A) can still be renewed rather than converted, but the renewed licence may have reduced privileges. If this option is available the licence will be listed in the "Renewal licence" column.

*******************

Conversion tables
Changes to the licensing system mean that some licences are no longer available or can no longer be renewed. Different licences with similar privileges are available, as set out in the table below.

Some national licences can still be renewed rather than converted, but the renewed licence may have reduced privileges. If this option is available the licence will be listed in the "Renewal licence" column.

General aviation licences

Existing / Expiring Licence Renewal Licence EASA conversion options
NPPL (SSEA, SLMG) NPPL (SSEA, SLMG) LAPL (A), LAPL (S)
PPL (SLMG) PPL (SLMG) or NPPL (SLMG) SPL, LAPL (S), PPL (A)
Depending on what you are flying
NPPL (M) PPL (M) NPPL (Microlight) Not applicable
PPL (Gyroplane) PPL (Gyroplane) Not applicable
UK PPL (A) UK PPL (A) (only valid for annex II aircraft) Part FCL PPL (A)
UK BCPL (A) Restricted UK PPL (A) (only valid for annex II aircraft) Part-FCL PPL (A)
UK PPL (H) UK PPL (H) (only valid for annex II aircraft) Part-FCL PPL (H)
JAR PPL (A) Part-FCL PPL (A) Part FCL PPL (A)
JAR PPL (H) Part-FCL PPL (H) Part FCL PPL (H)


******************

Yes, my bad. There are not Annexe 1 aircraft and Annexe 2 ones, there are just Annexe 2 ones and ones not in Annexe 2

And, yes, I have called a licence an EASA SEP when, from the table above, it is Part-FCL PPL (A)

But I think the gist of what I said is correct. Happy for BB and others to point out errors so we all learn.

And so back to the OP's post.

I think he should get his UK PPL (A) re-issued as a UK PPL (A) (only valid for annex II aircraft) and then he should also get a Part FCL PPL (A)

I also actually think - since they are still being issued, he might find it an idea to get an NPPL (SSEA) - which was until very recently available in exchange for a UK PPL (A), and may still be although not mentioned in that table - and also a LAPL (which is definitely available for another c£85 if you have an NPPL (SSEA).

Of course what he can't do is hold both a LAPL and a Part FCL PPL (A)

[BillieBob]

xrayalpha: I cannot determine whether you truly do not understand the requirements or are simply trying to muddy the waters to satisfy some personal agenda.

The OP simply asked if the CAA will accept a certified copy of the Examiner's report in place of a certified copy of the Certificates of Test/Revalidation page and Flyingmac provided a full and correct response. You then provided a confused and factually incorrect diatribe that had no relevance to the OP's question.

The simple fact is that if you wish to fly an EASA aeroplane, you must hold an EASA licence and, in the UK at least, if you hold an EASA licence you can also fly any non-EASA aeroplane that falls within an EASA class (i.e. SEP, MEP, etc). To fly any aeroplane that does not fall within an EASA class (e.g a microlight, ex-military, etc,) you may need to hold a national licence (e.g NPPL, PPL, etc.). Incidentally, JAR licences and BCPLs no longer exist.

[MrAverage]

Surely, as this example is a renewal, all that needs to be sent to Gatwick is the 1157 and an 1107?
The licence is a lifetime licence is it not?

[xrayalpha]

BB,

No personal agenda. I don't work for the CAA and don't sit on any committees.

OP doesn't say which style of light aircraft he now wants to fly. Just wants a licence. Has done his time with the examiner and has conflicting suggestions on where to go next: renewal of his old-style licence, or issue of part-FCL PPL (A) as suggested by examiner.

Yes, my reply might be a bit of thread drift, but in my defence the first reply was: Don't give up your UK PPL.

As I - obviously a complete idiot, but allowed to fly nonetheless! - understand the CAA table, if an old UK CAA PPL (A) is simply renewed, it soon won't allow the OP to fly a Cessna/Piper because the CAA will put an "only valid for Annexe 2 aircraft" restriction on it. That seems pretty important for people to know?

So my response, hoping to be helpful to the OP and anyone else reading this, was to point out my view - obviously worth very little, at least in your opinion - of the options as far as I understand them.

My advice is free and worth what you pay for it.

ps. Spent a bit of time trying to get the spacing on the CAA table sorted, but that all disappeared when posted on pprune. My apologies.

[Mike Flynn]

Originally Posted by Flyingmac

Give them your licence number and ask them to send you the relevant page. They sent me three. It's headed Rating-Certificate of Revalidation.


Do NOT give up your UK PPL.

Is there any valid reason why not?

[Maoraigh1]

UK PPL has privelages allowed by the CAA which EASA do not allow. It can be held while holding an EASA PPL.
( e.g. to fly out-of-currency with a passenger who is qualified and current on the aircraft, but who is not an instructor. Useful if no local instructors current on aircraft type.)

[antiseptic]

Thanks for useful replies everybody. I need to check with the examiner who I passed my proficiency test with, but this is the plan:
- Get EASA Class 2 medical (booked)
- Complete form SRG1104 (application to convert national PPL issued by UK to EASA Part-FCL PPL)
- Complete form SRG-1119C (Application for renewal of SEP rating, to be used if not possible to complete certificate of revalidation on license)
- Send to Gatwick complete with certificate of course completion and examiners report, and including a large cheque.

Hopefully this will do the bureaucratic trick.

[Maoraigh1]

There's a form for payment allowing a card number to be given. Then the CAA debit their calculation of their charges. Avoids the problem of the wrong cheque amount.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by Maoraigh1

There's a form for payment allowing a card number to be given. Then the CAA debit their calculation of their charges. Avoids the problem of the wrong cheque amount.

That's the only way, really, given the usual impossibility of working out how much you're supposed to pay.

[LowNSlow]

I would still try to hang on to you UK PPL. My reason is that I fly a non-EASA aircraft anyway but I now also don't have to had over a pile of pounds every year for a fairly rubbish medical.

[antiseptic]

Ah yes, good tip about the card number, thanks Maoraigh and Gertrude! I have been scratching my head about exactly how much dosh they require.

And LowNSlow, yes, I have handcuffed my UK PPL to my wrist and thrown away the key...

[Fl1ingfrog]

EASA PPL application

Antiseptic

Please ensure you complete the EASA PPL application form with your CFI. There are pitfalls and some so far have not been covered here.

You are NOT converting your UK PPL to EASA. You are having the EASA PPL issued on the basis of holding your UK PPL. The UK issued EASA PPL will cover you for both EASA aircraft and UK registered Annex 11.

In the form there is a Tick Box asking you to tick it if you wish to retain your UK PPL. TICK this box. The effect of this is that they will then re-issue your old UK PPL but in the new format (identical to your EASA licence). This licence has the certificate of validation pages included within it. You do not therefore need a separate validation page. There is NO charge for this UK PPL re-issue as long as you tick the box now.

In the section where your ratings are entered include all ratings that you have held with expiry dates; i.e. Night Rating, IMC, RT licence etc. It doesn't matter if they are a long time out of date. Those not currently valid will be entered in a section on the back of the EASA licence ready for future validation. The Night Rating, if you held it, no longer expires, so it will be included in the licence as normal. Your RT licence even if it has expired will be included as a lifetime privilege in the new licenses. DO NOT rely on the CAA to pick up any of this up from your records, because they most likely will not.

The IMC rating will be referred to as the IRR (IR restricted) on the EASA licence but on the UK PPL it will still be the IMC rating.

[antiseptic]

Thanks Fl1ingfrog - have now done as you recommend. Will be seeing the CFI next Tues to go through all the paperwork before sending off.