Getting into the air by my own efforts

[Heston]

Originally Posted by BlackadderIA

For a fraction of the cost of the materials you'd need to buy to spanner something together in the shed you'll get some proper flying instruction and access to a great club environment.
If you subsequently decide to go down the shed construction route (and good on you if you do!) then at least you'll also know which bits to waggle on the first flight

I think this is a key point that nobody has mentioned yet. The OP is assuming that self build will be cheap. It ain't. And it will take ages.
If the goal is to get airborne ASAP and as cheap as poss, then start with gliding. What comes next? Who knows, but you will have started.

Please forgive me in advance now because what comes next might be considered rude (though I mean it to be helpful). There is a slight whiff of martyrdom about the tone of your posts. To be honest, if you need excuses not to do it, then fair enough. But I know many people in severely restricted circumstances who've followed the dream and made it happen. Lots of good advice on here and the other forum where you've asked the same question. Don't let yourself off the hook - you only regret what you don't try.

[FullWings]

Bit rough, since the OP has stated he is in Aviation and understands most of the rules & risks.. Just looking for a low cost way to get airbourn..

Well, Beachy Head is the cheapest, so I’m told.

I hope to meet the OP one day and swap a few flying stories, maybe over a beer or two. I don’t wish to read about his exploits in an AAIB report. If that seems rough, so be it.

[Crash one]

Originally Posted by JOE-FBS

"Unfortunately this country is so highly regulated in the aviation business that being legal is very difficult."


Wrong in this case. You can legally build and fly a single-seat de-regulated (SSDR) with no regulatory oversight

You seem to have either misquoted me or you are being very selective.
Being legal is difficult with all the various licences, reval rules etc. There are plenty of threads on that subject.
I also mentioned the SSDR route which you seem to have forgotten. And I am quite certain that deregulation only refers to the specifications of the aircraft, not the pilots licence.
So you can build unregulated, but you cannot fly it unregulated/unlicensed.
If you can prove otherwise I will apologise.

[JOE-FBS]

I think, Crash One, we are violently agreeing with each other. I was just trying to be a more half-full than half-empty. You're in Scotland, you lucky thing, no airspace up there compared with us poor devils in the south-east of England. :-)

[Heston]

AIUI the current rules in the UK are that there are two levels of deregulated flying.
1. SSDR is any single seat aircraft that meets the definition of microlight (qv). These have no airworthiness requirements or oversight, but must be registered and insured as aircraft. The pilot must be licenced and must hold a rating for microlights.
2. Paramotors. Must be foot launched although there is currently an exemption that allows them to have wheels if under 70kg. In effect an aircraft which is under 70kgs counts as a paramotor. No legal requirement for the aircraft to be registered or insured, nor for any pilot licencing or training. Still need to act in accordance with the ANO.
In practice paramotorists are likely to need insurance in order to get permission from the landowner to fly from their land.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Fearenside

Having reached my mid forties, and having had a lifelong dream of learning to fly, I’ve decided that now is the time. However, due to financial reasons the normal route - joining a club, paying for lessons by the hour etc - isn’t an option, and probably never will be. So I’ve started investigating ways of getting into the air by my own efforts.

Welcome to PPrune - I'm also in my mid 40s, an aeronautical engineer, although I've also been flying since I was 19, and yes - it's a fantastic hobby and occupation.

The advantage I have is that I work in aerospace, so I do things like aerodynamics, structures, stability and control etc on a daily basis. This will help greatly with any self-design / self-build option.

As do I, and yes it'll help a lot. But do not underestimate the big gaps in your knowledge base. I don't believe that any non-pilot can really understand handling qualities adequately, and there will also be lots of detail design / maintainability issues that were inadequately covered in your engineering degree(s).

However if I’m going to avoid the costs of training or licensing or registration, while still staying legal, then I’m looking at a foot-launched microlight, i.e. <60kg fully fuelled, <10litres fuel, <35kts stall. As I understand it, this category contains (almost exclusively) paramotors and powered hang gliders. However for various reasons those things have never appealed; my intention is three-axis control - I’m imagining something similar to the Mike Sandlin airchairs with a paramotor engine (like the "Bloop" aircraft but 3-axis instead of 2), but much lighter, foot-launched (obviously), and in a form that can be folded to fit on a roof rack. Would something like that still satisfy the legal definition as long as weight, stall etc were within limits?

Don't, don't, don't, don't avoid flying training. However you do it, find the time and money to train with a suitably qualified instructor to at least PPL level in something whether that's a PPL in aeroplanes or microlights, or the equivalents in paramotors or gliders. The doctor who treats himself has fool for a patient, and pretty much the same applies to anybody teaching themselves to fly. The Wright brothers had no choice, everybody else since has had that choice.

If so, I already have some ideas in that direction, which I’m currently working on.

As well as the technical challenges, I also need to figure out where I can fly from. I live in a very crowded (and hilly) corner of South-East England - plenty of greenery, but no wide flat spaces where you can just turn up and do what you want without someone else’s say-so. We do have some long stretches of beach nearby, and if you walk far enough along them (with a 60kg bundle on your shoulder!) you’ll find long, deserted stretches - could that be an option? I also see paragliding / hang gliding on the South Downs - though I guess those areas are rented by or otherwise exclusively reserved for certain clubs, who wouldn’t take kindly to someone just turning up with a three-axis home-built? Alternatively I could bribe a farmer with suitable field... Seriously though, what are the limits on just driving into the countryside and picking a spot to fly from?

DO IT PROPERLY.

Use a flying school to learn to fly.

If you're going to learn to fly, flying schools already have sites to learn at.

If you're going to engage in flight testing a prototype, your test pilot needs to be operating in a known environment.

If anyone has covered this ground before (existing designs, viable locations, etc) then I’d be grateful for any advice.

Cheers,

F.

A copy of Pooleys or the AFE flight guide will tell you where all the airfields are - there will be far more than you think. For mucking about safely and privately, there are many disused airfields in the UK, they're marked on the CAA charts.

There are loads of existing designs. You could do worse than buy a set of plans from Mike Whittaker, the ex-BAC aircraft designer who designer the MW4, MW5, MW6T, MW6S and MW7. Last I spoke to him he was happy to sell a full set of drawings for any of his aircraft for £150 or so.

To learn to fly - go to a flying instructor.

To learn how to flight test an aeroplane - go to a test pilot.

The country has hundreds of the first, and dozens of the second. The vast majority will not ask for stupid money to share their skillsets, just enough to justify their time as they are almost to a man and woman passionate about flying and want people like you to succeeed.

Designing and building your own WILL cost more than buying a cheap and airworthy second hand microlight of course - the reason to design and build your own is because you want to, not to save money, because you won't.

The amount of time you don't spend in hospital unable to work will pay for the flying training.

G

[Crash one]

Originally Posted by JOE-FBS

I think, Crash One, we are violently agreeing with each other. I was just trying to be a more half-full than half-empty. You're in Scotland, you lucky thing, no airspace up there compared with us poor devils in the south-east of England. :-)

Thank you.
I was brung up down there, Billingshurst, in th 50s, garden of England and all that. Now over run with pikeys and "foreigners", neighbours that can't agree on the colour of ****e. Having a glass half full attitude is commendable.
Only thing wrong with Scotland is, you need inflight refuelling to get from one airfield to the next! With half of the country lying on it's side it could be a long walk home. But it's beautiful to fly over.

[yellowperil]

As I used to say to students at the Gliding Club stand at the University Sports Union Freshers Fair, "Gliding is cheap for flying, but flying ain't cheap!"

All of the alternatives mentioned above are relatively cheap ways to get into the air, but none are absolutely cheap - and it seems the absolute amount is what's causing you the problem. Aviation isn't solely the preserve of the wealthy, but one needs either to have a lot, or sacrifice a lot, to get into the air and stay there. It's not quite a case of "if you have to ask, you can't afford it", but if funds are that low, then trying to achieve this dream will only end in disappointment, if not tragedy.

[Maoraigh1]

AFTER learning to fly, AND getting enough hours in an aircraft rented from the Flying School who taught you, you will find shares in Group owned aircraft for £2000 or less. You could buy your own aircraft for much less than £10,000 IF you could find somewhere to keep it.
(Renting after getting your license ensures someone will try to prevent you doing something stupid, and will prevent you flying when not current.)

[mary meagher]

Some people like to build their own aircraft. Some even like to design an aircraft and build it -

But if he is serious about designing and/or building his own aircraft, sadly experience shows he hardly ever has enough lifetime remaining to learn how to fly properly. The years have passed him by while he has been crafting his design in the shed; he is now over 60 and my experience as instructor found people over this age find learning a new skill is not easy. It is easy for those aged 14 through 24.

It is not just the basic technology. It is the weather, the environment, the government, the neighbours.... which is why most of us don't try to go alone. And why the insurance companies are reluctant to ensure loners.

[RTN11]

We are dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants.

You really don't need to reinvent the whole thing and build your own machine, and then teach yourself to fly it.

Use the experience of those around you, and you will save yourself a lot of time and money.

If you invest your own time and money into constructing a machine, then bend it on the first attempt at flight, even if you come off uninjured the whole exercise is still a waste.

Another vote here for gliding as cheap but quality way to get airborne, and you'll meet some fantastic people along the way. Club atmosphere is great, and even when the weather is pants it's still a good day out. When you do then get to solo stage, it's all the more satisfying to look back at your accomplishments rather than to hurl yourself into the air untrained as a test pilot with no experience.

[Genghis the Engineer]

And the UK has a lamentable lack of homebuilding in the gliding community - learn to glide, design and build your own glider to CS.22. That would be an impressive and very satisfying achievement, but not an impossible one.

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

Originally Posted by RTN11

You really don't need to reinvent the whole thing and build your own machine, and then teach yourself to fly it. Use the experience of those around you, and you will save yourself a lot of time and money.

You will also save yourself from the accidental death that history does not - or , at best, scarcely - report about those who didn't succeed. History, like the tabloids, only mentions winners.

[xrayalpha]

Heston wrote:

1. SSDR is any single seat aircraft that meets the definition of microlight (qv). These have no airworthiness requirements or oversight, but must be registered and insured as aircraft. The pilot must be licenced and must hold a rating for microlights.


Actually, the point of SSDR is that it DOESN'T need to meet ANY definition, other than that of SSDR!

So not "microlight", not "light aircraft" etc.

That's the "deregulated" part! Not meeting Section S, or having a C of A, etc.

However, there is a definition of a SSDR which it obviously has to meet!

You have to have a pilot's licence, rather than a microlight one. So an EASA SEP will do as well as a microlight one, for example.

[Heston]

Originally Posted by xrayalpha

Heston wrote:

1. SSDR is any single seat aircraft that meets the definition of microlight (qv). These have no airworthiness requirements or oversight, but must be registered and insured as aircraft. The pilot must be licenced and must hold a rating for microlights.


Actually, the point of SSDR is that it DOESN'T need to meet ANY definition, other than that of SSDR!

However, there is a definition of a SSDR which it obviously has to meet!

You have to have a pilot's licence, rather than a microlight one. So an EASA SEP will do as well as a microlight one, for example.

But part of the definition of ssdr is that it's a microlight!
De-regulation of all single-seat microlights is confirmed | UK Civil Aviation Authority
There are lots of single seat aircraft that aren't ssdr because they aren't microlights.
The same document I've linked to stipulates a microlight licence must be held.

[funfly]

Buy a kit to built it will cost you at least £15,000. Building it will consume many hours and additional costs.
You can get a lot of hours tuition in a Cessna for that.
Gliding is the least expensive way to fly but expect to put in hours and hours of pushing everyone else around.

[172510]

mary meagher is right.
Learning to fly a (winch launched) glider is cheaper than learning to fly an aeroplane or even a microlight. It's also a pleasant social experience as it's a collective activity, you rely on others and they rely on you. Gliding has the best flying pleasure/cost ratio.

[irish seaplane]

I had a friend who self instructed. He even landed his trike paramotor on my driveway. Getting brave he bought the two seat version. Didn't read the book or ask but fired up and brought his girlfriend him. All fine when climbing to altitude. Levelled off and chute assumed a negative AOA and crumpled up. As he fell to the ground only a well timed application of full power prior to impact saved their lives.

My 0.02 is put the same energy and time into making money, and you'll have the price of conventional instruction made in no time. There is nobody handing out medals to my pal for his self taught endeavours.

[First_Principal]

Where's your sense of adventure?

I have to confess to being somewhat bemused here - mostly by the various responses to the OP.

I seem to recall that not that long ago several chaps did just the sort of thing the OP is talking about. These guys created a flying machine and, without any training, got in it and learnt something. Then they did stuff and learnt a bit more. After a while they'd learnt quite a lot and various other people came along and eventually we have what we have today - some pretty slick machinery, along with a whole bunch of rules.

Those rules have stifled much in the way of innovation and prevent the sort of pioneering spirit that would have abounded back in Richard's, and Wilbur and Orville's time (or even a few hundred years before if we count Leonardo). However from what I read here there remains a narrow field of opportunity for people to experiment, to learn, to contribute and to experience a degree of unfettered enjoyment in what they create and do.

Further to this, and again only from what read here (but I've no reason to doubt), the proponent has a fair degree of experience in a related field and doesn't seem to be someone who'd stick something together with binding twine and paper. Not that there's anything wrong with that perhaps, if your design calls for it. That they've even asked the question here suggests they've a modicum of sensibility and probably enough nouse to figure most things out and ask someone where they can't.

In the end I expect Darwin will out, one way or the other, but if I were in the OP's part of the world I think I'd send him or her a PM and say 'how about we get together sometime and talk this thing through, and BTW would you like to go for a fly this w/end?'. The OP's spirit is to be applauded and encouraged in my view - admittedly with some gentle guidance perhaps - but it seems to me there's a story here that's worth teasing out and nurturing

FP.

[Crash one]

First Principle.
Pity there isn't a like button on here.
As for the conventionists. Where does progress go without the outside the box thinkers?
An expression I once heard." If that were possible someone would have done it already". Well really!
The condom on the dick of progress springs to mind.
Barnes Wallis, Bert Rutan, Frank Whittle, R J Mitchell, etc. Thank the Lord for them all.
The OP has an aviation background, he's not some numpty with an unworkable notion and a death wish.
We are all in possession of vastly more knowledge today than the pioneers that did all the ground work sorting out the physics.
I just wish I had the years, the energy, spare time and a bit more technical knowledge to go down the same route.