Long term rentals
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Long term rentals
I have a dream of doing a flying 'road trip' through the west coast of north america (starting in California and ending up in Alaska, and making our way back)
I would ideally take about 3-4 weeks to do this, to allow for some days looking around in the cities I visit
However the conundrum is that I don't know where to start in terms of hiring an aircraft, and where I can hire an aircraft (preferably something like a 172 or SR22) for a long period of time.
Anyone have any experience around this or tips to share?
I would ideally take about 3-4 weeks to do this, to allow for some days looking around in the cities I visit
However the conundrum is that I don't know where to start in terms of hiring an aircraft, and where I can hire an aircraft (preferably something like a 172 or SR22) for a long period of time.
Anyone have any experience around this or tips to share?
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You'll have to make a good business case to the owner. Such arrangements can be made. What the owner is seeking to avoid is their rental aircraft not available at home to create revenue for 6-8 hours a day, while it's far away creating only 2-4 hours revenue a day in rental. While the plane is far away, the cost and effort to rectify a problem increases exponentially.
So you are best off presenting the idea to the aircraft owner as good business for them. Said differently, offer a good daily minimum regardless of use, and a deposit in case there is a problem far from home.
A long time ago, I asked to rent the club's Cardinal RG for a week. The answer was: Minimum 4 hours rental payment ($55 per hour at the time) for each day, flown or not, and above that whatever I flew. My average was 3.9 hours per day, and they were okay with that. On another occasion, when I did damage their 172RG just a bit, I paid to fix it. My mistake, not their problem. That seemed to help their respect for me as a client.
The profit on a rental aircraft is meager. It will be instantly eaten up by a minor "event" far from home. With the aircraft a half continent away, a stuck exhaust valve, or dented wingtip becomes a big deal. Have your plan in advance for how such an event does not become their problem. As perhaps a non citizen, it's probably very difficult to buy the plane for yourself (and not your plan anyway) but offering a large (enticing) damage deposit, as though you'd bought a part of the ownership is a great way to advance your objective. Consider that those who did buy the plane for such trips do take those risks entirely upon themselves (yeah, I've had a stuck valve in my plane a thousand miles from home).
The California to Alaska route is very demanding (weather and topography). Totally scenic, and demanding (there are a few photos in the photos thread). Aircraft owners know this, and will be wary of their aircraft flying that route. Recognize the vital need for a comprehensive emergency kit (many hundreds of $ and many tens of pounds) which the owner has not planned to provide.
Those who fly these demanding routes likely have heritage doing it - friends who have done it, and offer advice, or better, they have flown as second pilot beforehand.
So you are best off presenting the idea to the aircraft owner as good business for them. Said differently, offer a good daily minimum regardless of use, and a deposit in case there is a problem far from home.
A long time ago, I asked to rent the club's Cardinal RG for a week. The answer was: Minimum 4 hours rental payment ($55 per hour at the time) for each day, flown or not, and above that whatever I flew. My average was 3.9 hours per day, and they were okay with that. On another occasion, when I did damage their 172RG just a bit, I paid to fix it. My mistake, not their problem. That seemed to help their respect for me as a client.
The profit on a rental aircraft is meager. It will be instantly eaten up by a minor "event" far from home. With the aircraft a half continent away, a stuck exhaust valve, or dented wingtip becomes a big deal. Have your plan in advance for how such an event does not become their problem. As perhaps a non citizen, it's probably very difficult to buy the plane for yourself (and not your plan anyway) but offering a large (enticing) damage deposit, as though you'd bought a part of the ownership is a great way to advance your objective. Consider that those who did buy the plane for such trips do take those risks entirely upon themselves (yeah, I've had a stuck valve in my plane a thousand miles from home).
The California to Alaska route is very demanding (weather and topography). Totally scenic, and demanding (there are a few photos in the photos thread). Aircraft owners know this, and will be wary of their aircraft flying that route. Recognize the vital need for a comprehensive emergency kit (many hundreds of $ and many tens of pounds) which the owner has not planned to provide.
Those who fly these demanding routes likely have heritage doing it - friends who have done it, and offer advice, or better, they have flown as second pilot beforehand.
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Step Turn,
Just out of curiosity, what makes the trip particularly challenging? Looking at the charts doesn't particularly highlight anything that demanding, or more so than a trip that distance anywhere in the world - but reading your response makes me believe that I am definitely missing something!
I understand that weather would be a factor to consider, but you would have that anywhere on such a long distance, the beauty of having a long trip and time to do it means that you can pick your route and days as you feel comfortable so as to alleviate the "stressful" alternative. It isn't a ferry flight that must arrive by a specific date!
At least in the UK, I have found quite a few owners who don't fly their aeroplanes as much as they would like to, and may be very interested in you renting their plane for a month or two at good rates, with a good number of hours to be done on their plane, especially just after the summer (Sept - Dec, not that this is any good for you wanting to go north....). A hangar queen is no good to anyone, a plane that flies, at least you know is able to fly! I am not sure schools / clubs are the best people to ask, I think you should try targeting owners and groups. I have seen a few websites where owners advertise their under-utilised planes - perhaps a few emails might help you out?
Good luck - sounds like an incredible trip!
Just out of curiosity, what makes the trip particularly challenging? Looking at the charts doesn't particularly highlight anything that demanding, or more so than a trip that distance anywhere in the world - but reading your response makes me believe that I am definitely missing something!
I understand that weather would be a factor to consider, but you would have that anywhere on such a long distance, the beauty of having a long trip and time to do it means that you can pick your route and days as you feel comfortable so as to alleviate the "stressful" alternative. It isn't a ferry flight that must arrive by a specific date!
At least in the UK, I have found quite a few owners who don't fly their aeroplanes as much as they would like to, and may be very interested in you renting their plane for a month or two at good rates, with a good number of hours to be done on their plane, especially just after the summer (Sept - Dec, not that this is any good for you wanting to go north....). A hangar queen is no good to anyone, a plane that flies, at least you know is able to fly! I am not sure schools / clubs are the best people to ask, I think you should try targeting owners and groups. I have seen a few websites where owners advertise their under-utilised planes - perhaps a few emails might help you out?
Good luck - sounds like an incredible trip!
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My brother and I have done this a couple of times.
First was in 1992 - hired a 182 RG out of North Carolina - at the time my brother was a 56hr total time PPL with no complex (me no PPL at all).
He did a check out in the airplane (N9888C - I recall, saw the airplane for sale in bits a few years back) - it cost US$45/hr dry - we flew up the rivers in New York, Niagara Falls, Oshkosh, out to Boulder in Colorado and a host of places in between - it was about three weeks in total.
Second trip was out of Florida 1994 - another 182 RG out of Orlando Executive - we just walked in the door and rented it - did Key West, Bahamas, a two week trip - the flight to the US was a freebie - remember the Hoover Flights scandal
Third time was to Las Vegas - 1996 - hired a 172 RG Cutlass - again just walked in off the street at North Las Vegas airport - flew the Grand Canyon, around the edge of Area 51, Hoover Dam, Death Valley.
My brother lost his medical in 2000 so that stopped those trips - so maybe post-"9/11" things are more difficult, but I do not think so.
The first trip we had lined up the airplane before we got to the US (very complicated in the pre-Internet days) - the others we simply walked in off the the street and selected one of several nice looking airplanes with a company name of it and then went to find their office.
I would think the same thing would apply now, but with the internet it would be simpler - I would also suggest placing an advert on Barnstormers.com with you requirements and see what comes out of the woodwork as an option too.
If anyone wants to fly the Eastern Caribbean and has an FAA PPL and 100 hours my newly refurbished Archer II is available for rent - lots of interesting islands down here, not too long to fly to them The Grenadines are rather spectacular, 45 mins flying from Barbados to Bequia, Union, Canouan, Grenada, Tobago, St. Vincent, St. Lucia etc. all within 15 to 90 minutes. Oddly commercial it costs more to fly from Barbados to Bequia than it does to fly to New York so if you want somewhere that makes Barbados seem like the heaving metropolis, get to the Grenadines!
First was in 1992 - hired a 182 RG out of North Carolina - at the time my brother was a 56hr total time PPL with no complex (me no PPL at all).
He did a check out in the airplane (N9888C - I recall, saw the airplane for sale in bits a few years back) - it cost US$45/hr dry - we flew up the rivers in New York, Niagara Falls, Oshkosh, out to Boulder in Colorado and a host of places in between - it was about three weeks in total.
Second trip was out of Florida 1994 - another 182 RG out of Orlando Executive - we just walked in the door and rented it - did Key West, Bahamas, a two week trip - the flight to the US was a freebie - remember the Hoover Flights scandal
Third time was to Las Vegas - 1996 - hired a 172 RG Cutlass - again just walked in off the street at North Las Vegas airport - flew the Grand Canyon, around the edge of Area 51, Hoover Dam, Death Valley.
My brother lost his medical in 2000 so that stopped those trips - so maybe post-"9/11" things are more difficult, but I do not think so.
The first trip we had lined up the airplane before we got to the US (very complicated in the pre-Internet days) - the others we simply walked in off the the street and selected one of several nice looking airplanes with a company name of it and then went to find their office.
I would think the same thing would apply now, but with the internet it would be simpler - I would also suggest placing an advert on Barnstormers.com with you requirements and see what comes out of the woodwork as an option too.
If anyone wants to fly the Eastern Caribbean and has an FAA PPL and 100 hours my newly refurbished Archer II is available for rent - lots of interesting islands down here, not too long to fly to them
The Grenadines are rather spectacular, 45 mins flying from Barbados to Bequia, Union, Canouan, Grenada, Tobago, St. Vincent, St. Lucia etc. all within 15 to 90 minutes. Oddly commercial it costs more to fly from Barbados to Bequia than it does to fly to New York so if you want somewhere that makes Barbados seem like the heaving metropolis, get to the Grenadines!
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Thanks for the super replies guys, very helpful!
@Step turn - I would also be keen to understand why you think the route is particularly demanding. But totally get your points around aircraft breaking down and insurance etc. I wonder how insurance normally works - are planes in the US normally insured on the owner, or just the plane itself?
@alex and @sam - very splendid ideas! I guess I have the same question about insurance - what would give the owners peace of mind in case the worst was to happen (e.g. plane is written off?) I am a very diligent pilot and risk averse but I guess you can't rule out anything.
@Ebbie - that's amazing that you've done that and you were able to hire without much friction. I would love to learn more if you're up for being contacted privately? I presume the aircraft you hired were properly insured as well?
@Step turn - I would also be keen to understand why you think the route is particularly demanding. But totally get your points around aircraft breaking down and insurance etc. I wonder how insurance normally works - are planes in the US normally insured on the owner, or just the plane itself?
@alex and @sam - very splendid ideas! I guess I have the same question about insurance - what would give the owners peace of mind in case the worst was to happen (e.g. plane is written off?) I am a very diligent pilot and risk averse but I guess you can't rule out anything.
@Ebbie - that's amazing that you've done that and you were able to hire without much friction. I would love to learn more if you're up for being contacted privately? I presume the aircraft you hired were properly insured as well?
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The north/south route along western North America is typically mountainous, or at the least quite rugged. The region is beautiful when the weather is nice, and horrific if you're stuck flying in deteriorating conditions. Obviously, we are all trained to plan and avoid poor weather beyond our, and the plane's capabilities, but in that region, the spaces can be much greater between suitable landing areas. If you have to divert, your alternate choice may have gone down too. When you actually plot the distances between airports, it can be a little alarming north on the 49th parallel. When I ferried an MD500 helicopter from central Alaska to Vancouver, there were not adequate fuel stops for the range of the machines, and we had to plan off airport stops to jerry can fuel along the way. Fairly easy in a helicopter, not so much so in a wheelplane. If your planning is good, and the weather holds, it's doable in any rentable GA aircraft.
It could be that flying within (as opposed to over) the mountain valleys seems attractive. You really have to know what you're doing, and where you're going to do this safely. The valleys can box you in, and dead end if you choose the wrong one, leaving you inadequate room to turn around to exit. I've had friends die getting this wrong. I am only comfortable flying the Canadian Rocky Mountains if I can go over, rather than through the valleys. I have flown the valleys too, but with good local knowledge, and a plan to get out the other way.
Thereafter, you must consider a forced landing, there are few places to do it without damaging a typical tricycle Cessna/Piper, help may be 50+ miles away, and it can be difficult to make yourself findable. For these routes it's important to carry enough emergency kit to survive for several days. If you're renting the plane, you'll have to buy everything. Even when I flew a same day ferry flight of a 182 from Oregon to Vancouver, I bought the necessities at a local camping store in Oregon. This included a life jacket, in case ditching was my only choice.
The western areas are adequately served with fuel all the way, which is good. In northern Quebec in the east, fuel becomes the problem, there are just not enough places to stop to refuel, and only a couple of runways at the far north.
I can't answer specific questions about insurance, you'll have to ask the aircraft provider. But assure that the insurance will cover the intended route, and beyond that, have a plan for what happens if you land the aircraft into a place from which a ferry out is not possible. That could be as simple as you landed somewhere with no fuel availability, and fuel had to be brought to you, to damage to the aircraft which requires maintenance beyond the resource of that place. I have the fortune (and duty) to be among a group of experienced pilots who would move heaven and earth to help another. If you're in a foreign place without "help", it can be more difficult.
A few photos I have posted here:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...te-flying.html
will give you a sense of the remoteness and lack of facilities in the north....
It could be that flying within (as opposed to over) the mountain valleys seems attractive. You really have to know what you're doing, and where you're going to do this safely. The valleys can box you in, and dead end if you choose the wrong one, leaving you inadequate room to turn around to exit. I've had friends die getting this wrong. I am only comfortable flying the Canadian Rocky Mountains if I can go over, rather than through the valleys. I have flown the valleys too, but with good local knowledge, and a plan to get out the other way.
Thereafter, you must consider a forced landing, there are few places to do it without damaging a typical tricycle Cessna/Piper, help may be 50+ miles away, and it can be difficult to make yourself findable. For these routes it's important to carry enough emergency kit to survive for several days. If you're renting the plane, you'll have to buy everything. Even when I flew a same day ferry flight of a 182 from Oregon to Vancouver, I bought the necessities at a local camping store in Oregon. This included a life jacket, in case ditching was my only choice.
The western areas are adequately served with fuel all the way, which is good. In northern Quebec in the east, fuel becomes the problem, there are just not enough places to stop to refuel, and only a couple of runways at the far north.
I can't answer specific questions about insurance, you'll have to ask the aircraft provider. But assure that the insurance will cover the intended route, and beyond that, have a plan for what happens if you land the aircraft into a place from which a ferry out is not possible. That could be as simple as you landed somewhere with no fuel availability, and fuel had to be brought to you, to damage to the aircraft which requires maintenance beyond the resource of that place. I have the fortune (and duty) to be among a group of experienced pilots who would move heaven and earth to help another. If you're in a foreign place without "help", it can be more difficult.
A few photos I have posted here:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...te-flying.html
will give you a sense of the remoteness and lack of facilities in the north....
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Emkay, ALWAYS buy renter insurance - the airplanes are insured by their owners (most of the time) but insurance has a rather interesting word, "subrogation", nice word huh?
What you are looking for in the owner's insurance is something called a "subrogation waiver" written in your favour - basically subrogation - insurer pays the owner and then sues you for those costs plus a couple of hundred K in "costs".
Renter instance will run you a few hundred dollars and "keeps the flies off" if and when something happens.
We had an incident here a couple of years back - the pilot managed to do an off airport landing in which the airplane flipped (written off), he had renter insurance, they (lawyers) came down, wrote some cheques to farmers whose crops were damaged, told various threatening people to "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" who have not been heard from since, the renter insurers have issued him a new policy after nearly two years of no flying (I think it took that long to persuade his wife!) - like everything in life buy insurance. This is a link to a video of an interview that the pilot gave on the weekend of the incident, it is, I think, interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR14rzumIVQ he is a CFI, sea and flot plane instructor, major in the US Civil Air Patrol and go caught out by power loss on turning base (never underestimate the winds down here!)
Get in touch on the private messages if you like.
What you are looking for in the owner's insurance is something called a "subrogation waiver" written in your favour - basically subrogation - insurer pays the owner and then sues you for those costs plus a couple of hundred K in "costs".
Renter instance will run you a few hundred dollars and "keeps the flies off" if and when something happens.
We had an incident here a couple of years back - the pilot managed to do an off airport landing in which the airplane flipped (written off), he had renter insurance, they (lawyers) came down, wrote some cheques to farmers whose crops were damaged, told various threatening people to "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" who have not been heard from since, the renter insurers have issued him a new policy after nearly two years of no flying (I think it took that long to persuade his wife!) - like everything in life buy insurance. This is a link to a video of an interview that the pilot gave on the weekend of the incident, it is, I think, interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR14rzumIVQ he is a CFI, sea and flot plane instructor, major in the US Civil Air Patrol and go caught out by power loss on turning base (never underestimate the winds down here!)
Get in touch on the private messages if you like.
