Aircrew emergency escape parachute during ATPL, why NOT
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I've often thought about the merits of a parachute for GA types but unless you're deliberately putting the aircraft at risk of coming apart through aeros, sky diving, gaggling in a thermal etc. I really don't think there's a point. As others have said in your typical GA spam can how on earth would you get out? Wouldn't fancy it in a PA-28.
On the other hand I do think there is an argument for flying helmets but that is an unpopular opinion on an entirely different subject that has already been quite brutally worked to death by the esteemed company of PPRuNe
On the other hand I do think there is an argument for flying helmets but that is an unpopular opinion on an entirely different subject that has already been quite brutally worked to death by the esteemed company of PPRuNe
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Surely bailing out of say a C152/172 would be pretty simple? My boss used to regularly pop the doors in the cruise as an amusing alternative to the rudder and they're much easier to open against the airflow than you'd think. PA28 would be a bit "tricky" but if we all started wearing 'chutes then an after-market door jettison is hardly rocket science.
It's private flying though, the risk is entirely yours to take. There's surely a good bit of 'herd mentality' involved in the decision you make though? How would you react if someone walked out to a C172 at your club wearing full nomex, gloves, helmet and carrying a parachute? Praise them for being so safety conscious?
Survival equipment is for the very, very (very) rare occasions you suddenly find you need it. You may be totally comfortable flying in your normal clothes sans 'chute and it's your risk to own - but if you had an inflight fire or miraculously survived a mid air (and people do, it's just mainly glider pilots you hear from afterwards for some reason 🤔
only to find yourself with half a wing then I suspect your opinion on the issue would change fairly rapidly, albeit briefly...
It's private flying though, the risk is entirely yours to take. There's surely a good bit of 'herd mentality' involved in the decision you make though? How would you react if someone walked out to a C172 at your club wearing full nomex, gloves, helmet and carrying a parachute? Praise them for being so safety conscious?
Survival equipment is for the very, very (very) rare occasions you suddenly find you need it. You may be totally comfortable flying in your normal clothes sans 'chute and it's your risk to own - but if you had an inflight fire or miraculously survived a mid air (and people do, it's just mainly glider pilots you hear from afterwards for some reason 🤔
only to find yourself with half a wing then I suspect your opinion on the issue would change fairly rapidly, albeit briefly...
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A recurring theme has been an aircraft which took off flyable, becomes not flyable during the flight. 'Remarks about bungled aerobatics. This is not hitting the ground, hitting another object in the sky, or being shot up by the enemy, this is just airplane jams or breaks. How often has that happened, while an aircraft was being flown within it's approved maneuvering limits? For the few cases I can think of, by the time the pilot realized that they had completely bungled things, they were much too low to get out anyway.
I was required to wear a parachute while flying jumpers, I presume because of the risks of a jumper colliding with the tail, or, as explained to me, the risk of the aircraft tumbling, and my being thrown out (that did happen in Ontario decades back, I have no idea how). But, those are SOP type operations, where a risk is being managed. In GA, that risk is very very much less than the already low risk in jumper or such operations.
A very important part of being a good pilot is understanding risk. Be able to appreciate the balance of what could happen, vs severity, vs what is required to mitigate. The first and best way is to consider what everyone else doing it does, and do that! It must be working, they're still flying!
I have seen and do; wear fire resistant clothing all the time (natural fibers), wear hearing protection, wear my seat belt, wear a life jacket for over water flights, and carry an emergency kit appropriate to the route to be flown. My peers do these wise things. My peers don't wear a parachute for GA flying.
When I had to fly a Tiger Moth, it seems it was designed for the pilots to wear parachutes, there were deep depressions in the seat bottoms. 'No parachutes around. Three telephone books in the seat hole, and I was good to go.
I was required to wear a parachute while flying jumpers, I presume because of the risks of a jumper colliding with the tail, or, as explained to me, the risk of the aircraft tumbling, and my being thrown out (that did happen in Ontario decades back, I have no idea how). But, those are SOP type operations, where a risk is being managed. In GA, that risk is very very much less than the already low risk in jumper or such operations.
A very important part of being a good pilot is understanding risk. Be able to appreciate the balance of what could happen, vs severity, vs what is required to mitigate. The first and best way is to consider what everyone else doing it does, and do that! It must be working, they're still flying!
I have seen and do; wear fire resistant clothing all the time (natural fibers), wear hearing protection, wear my seat belt, wear a life jacket for over water flights, and carry an emergency kit appropriate to the route to be flown. My peers do these wise things. My peers don't wear a parachute for GA flying.
When I had to fly a Tiger Moth, it seems it was designed for the pilots to wear parachutes, there were deep depressions in the seat bottoms. 'No parachutes around. Three telephone books in the seat hole, and I was good to go.
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Maybe B2N2 would like to tell us all about the Cirrus parachute deployments. Over the years there have been quite a few. Engine failures, fuel exhaustion etc. each of which would normally have been handled by gliding to earth. But the "chute of invincibility" was deployed rather than dealing with the problem like pilots would have to do in other types.
Returning to the OP's question and later comments, the problem with your average spam can is that it is difficult to get out of. Given an engine failure, for whatever reason, one would assume that you are the right way up and under control. Now how do you get out? How do you passengers get out? At what height do you start to egress? I'll suggest that you have to be free from your plane with your release handle in your hand by 4-500'. And as some have mentioned, that might be difficult even if you start at 5,000'. It doesn't take much imagination to think how long it might take your granny to get out. And that is when you are under control. Now imagine if you are not. You will almost certainly be rotating about two axes simultaneously. Even gliders are difficult to get out of when this happens because as soon as you release your harness to bail out you will be thrown about in an unexpected fashion.
In a military or pseudo-military aircraft you might have a chance, in anything else virtually no chance at all. Unless of course you start very early... Which is where I think I came in.
PM
Returning to the OP's question and later comments, the problem with your average spam can is that it is difficult to get out of. Given an engine failure, for whatever reason, one would assume that you are the right way up and under control. Now how do you get out? How do you passengers get out? At what height do you start to egress? I'll suggest that you have to be free from your plane with your release handle in your hand by 4-500'. And as some have mentioned, that might be difficult even if you start at 5,000'. It doesn't take much imagination to think how long it might take your granny to get out. And that is when you are under control. Now imagine if you are not. You will almost certainly be rotating about two axes simultaneously. Even gliders are difficult to get out of when this happens because as soon as you release your harness to bail out you will be thrown about in an unexpected fashion.
In a military or pseudo-military aircraft you might have a chance, in anything else virtually no chance at all. Unless of course you start very early... Which is where I think I came in.
PM
When I had to fly a Tiger Moth, it seems it was designed for the pilots to wear parachutes
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Be Prepared!
If you haven't seen Rob Davies' escape from a P-51 at Duxford after having the elevator cables severed by an errant Skyraider... I think the collision was about 900', over the side at 500' and the parachute is fully developed at about 250'.
I believe that he regularly rehearsed his bale out procedure and I have also heard that he also briefed other pilots at displays. You can see the canopy jettisoned almost immediately after the collision, he then tries to fly the aircraft before deciding to abandon.
https://youtu.be/xctYWSuwoYA
I believe that he regularly rehearsed his bale out procedure and I have also heard that he also briefed other pilots at displays. You can see the canopy jettisoned almost immediately after the collision, he then tries to fly the aircraft before deciding to abandon.
https://youtu.be/xctYWSuwoYA
Going back a bit in the thread...
I was at a gliding site some years ago when an elderly chap in a single-seater released at the top of the winch launch and promptly entered a spin. He assessed that recovery before the impact would not be possible, released the canopy, exited the spinning aircraft, pulled the D-ring, and landed safely. I understand that he then walked to his car, got in, drove off and never returned, but that's another story. The point of this tale is that self-preservation is a powerful accelerator of thought and action when needed.
As an afterthought, When my Prentice engine quit in cloud (a feature of the aircraft I was unaware of until that moment, the mags didn't like the damp) over the Italian mountains I would have used a parachute if I had one. But I didn't, so I just turned 180 degrees, ie away from the rising ground, and then flew it at 60Kts in a straight line, awaiting developments. It was sheer good luck that I came out of the cloud at about 1,000 ft AGL, with a long military runway immediately beneath me that was not on the 1:500,000 map I had. God favours the pure in spirit, of course. So I'm an advocate of personal or aircraft parachutes such as the Cirrus CAPS for the benefit of the impure among you.
That raises another question. The Cirrus POH makes CAPS operation mandatory if the aircraft enters a spin. Recovery attempts are forbidden. I don't get that; surely the aircraft must have demonstrated spin recovery to be certificated? And if so, any competent pilot could recover from above, say, 1,500 ft?
2nd afterthought; I'm very glad I did not have to use the exit procedure for the rear seat passenger in a Sea Fury, on my one glorious ride in one. It started with 19 turns of a handle to wind the canopy back, as I recall, and then getting your feet on the seat, grabbing a bar above your head, heaving up on that while pushing with the feet, and eventually falling out.
I do not think I could assess the situation fast enough to get out of my PA28
As an afterthought, When my Prentice engine quit in cloud (a feature of the aircraft I was unaware of until that moment, the mags didn't like the damp) over the Italian mountains I would have used a parachute if I had one. But I didn't, so I just turned 180 degrees, ie away from the rising ground, and then flew it at 60Kts in a straight line, awaiting developments. It was sheer good luck that I came out of the cloud at about 1,000 ft AGL, with a long military runway immediately beneath me that was not on the 1:500,000 map I had. God favours the pure in spirit, of course. So I'm an advocate of personal or aircraft parachutes such as the Cirrus CAPS for the benefit of the impure among you.
That raises another question. The Cirrus POH makes CAPS operation mandatory if the aircraft enters a spin. Recovery attempts are forbidden. I don't get that; surely the aircraft must have demonstrated spin recovery to be certificated? And if so, any competent pilot could recover from above, say, 1,500 ft?
2nd afterthought; I'm very glad I did not have to use the exit procedure for the rear seat passenger in a Sea Fury, on my one glorious ride in one. It started with 19 turns of a handle to wind the canopy back, as I recall, and then getting your feet on the seat, grabbing a bar above your head, heaving up on that while pushing with the feet, and eventually falling out.
certified powered aircraft nearly never have a door through which in flight exit is intended by design, let alone possible
I do know that it would be very difficult to wear a 'chute and fit well enough in the seat to actually fly the aeroplane!
FBW
When I watched some gliding recently I noticed that all the single seater glider pilots wore parachutes, but none of the dual seat glider pilots did? What is the reason for that?
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[QUOTE=Bull at a Gate;9798865]When I watched some gliding recently I noticed that all the single seater glider pilots wore parachutes, but none of the dual seat glider pilots did? What is the reason for that?[/QUOTE
Lazy habits, typical of Australians! In gliders, one or two seats, in the UK, nearly always parachutes are worn. If you are flying in a glider in competition you will be very happy to wear a parachute, as thermals get rather crowded. The rules as far as I remember require parachutes in competition or in cloud, but not otherwise...but the gliders are designed for the chutes to be worn.
Part of introducing beginners to gliding should be how to wear and deploy a parachute. It does concentrate the mind of the beginner!
There was a guy at a gliding club in the UK who was TOO HEAVY to safely wear a chute in a single seat glider, so he left it at the launchpoint. The NEXT PILOT was TOO LAZY to go and get it, so he flew the glider without the parachute. Unfortunately (as it was an airfield where parachuting was part of the scene) he was at about 5,000 feet, when a free-fall parachutist impacted his wing. The parachutist was instantly killed, but the glider pilot had 5,000 feet of his downward spiral to regret not bothering to get the chute.
Lazy habits, typical of Australians! In gliders, one or two seats, in the UK, nearly always parachutes are worn. If you are flying in a glider in competition you will be very happy to wear a parachute, as thermals get rather crowded. The rules as far as I remember require parachutes in competition or in cloud, but not otherwise...but the gliders are designed for the chutes to be worn.
Part of introducing beginners to gliding should be how to wear and deploy a parachute. It does concentrate the mind of the beginner!
There was a guy at a gliding club in the UK who was TOO HEAVY to safely wear a chute in a single seat glider, so he left it at the launchpoint. The NEXT PILOT was TOO LAZY to go and get it, so he flew the glider without the parachute. Unfortunately (as it was an airfield where parachuting was part of the scene) he was at about 5,000 feet, when a free-fall parachutist impacted his wing. The parachutist was instantly killed, but the glider pilot had 5,000 feet of his downward spiral to regret not bothering to get the chute.
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I very much doubt you could persuade your passenger, granny or otherwise, to strap the parachute on in the first place.
IMHO opinion it's all about subjective hassle/benefit:
Wearable parachute: useful so rarely that it's not worth the bother in normal spamcan ops.
BRS: Same weight in fuel MUCH more useful.
Wearable parachute: useful so rarely that it's not worth the bother in normal spamcan ops.
BRS: Same weight in fuel MUCH more useful.
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Drive in a car that goes 100mph as a passenger.
As a pasenger => you are NOT in an urgent nervous emergency and in a very stable 1G relaxed condition.
Just "try". => Just try to open the door.
Imagine opening a General Aircraft door in an uncontrolled attitude, in panic and probably under an unknown amount of positive or negative "G".
If the aircraft is not build for "escaping", you are probably not gonna get out.
As a pasenger => you are NOT in an urgent nervous emergency and in a very stable 1G relaxed condition.
Just "try". => Just try to open the door.
Imagine opening a General Aircraft door in an uncontrolled attitude, in panic and probably under an unknown amount of positive or negative "G".
If the aircraft is not build for "escaping", you are probably not gonna get out.
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The only people at BGA clubs who don't wear parachutes are those that are too heavy or too long to wear one. Quite a few people (including me) are too short to fit without a parachute.
