VFR over water?

[Flyingcope]

Im just about to begin my PPL I have 12 previous hours from a few years ago that was given free to me.

I had a thought that id like to go cross channel when I do finish the PPL. A while off yet but its an idea I've had for a while. I was wondering what the limits were on flying VFR over water like the channel?

[A and C]

No limits on VFR over water but the English Channel can get a bit haze that makes the horizon difficult to see, an extra hour or so with an instructor brushing up the instrument flying to a point that you can hold good straight & level flight may well be a good idea if you are going to fly all but the shortest route across the water.

[ChickenHouse]

The aircraft does not know and does not care being over whatsoever. "Visual" over water is just a bit boring - looking down at water water water ship water water water ... No problems flying over the channel and the former restrictions, mainly uncomfortable altitudes for crossing, have been eliminated anyways. Do the first crossing together with a fellow pilot having done that before, so you get an introduction on radio communication procedures needed (principles with position reports, border crossing, mid-channel reports are quite similar to ocean crossing, so a nice further education).

[Mike Flynn]

I agree with Chickenhouse.

The route from Berry Head to the Channel Islands is easy these days with GPS.

When I first flew to Guernsey in 1981 it was just dead reckoning.

The run to the Channel Islands still offers duty free fuel,cheap flying and a nice weekend trip.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The aircraft does not know and does not care being over whatsoever.

Indeed. Which means one should have a plan B over water just like over land. For example, against the case the frontside ventilator suddenly stops.

[terry holloway]

Quite right, the engine doesn't know it's over water but sometimes they do stop! Therefore you need to read up on water "landing" technique and be dressed to survive. That includes a lifelacket and a dingy is a good idea. However, now I have mentioned a dingy, a number of people will tell you how difficult it is to get the dingy out of the aeroplane, and not to bother with one! They are right : it would be difficult but I always fly with one for long over water trips, and if the sea temperature is less than 16c I will always wear an immersion suit.

[piperboy84]

.. No problems flying over the channel and the former restrictions, mainly uncomfortable altitudes for crossing, have been eliminated anyways.

When did that happen, what are the new rules?

As for a PPL making the long crossings, as said above get some straight and level training. Twice on the Weymouth to Jersey crossing with good VFR forecast I couldn't see a damned thing thru the sea mist apart from the odd glimpse of the whitecaps.

A few years back I was talking to an ex BA captain from Belfast who flew his RV regularly across the water to Scotland, me being a novice asked him what he thought the best crossing altitude was. He was of the firm opinion that no more than 200 AMSL was his preferred height because if the engine quits he did not want to endure the long period of time it took gliding down from say 8000 while running the bitter recriminations and regrets about life including cursing his ex wives and girlfriends over and over while dawdling along at best glide. He'd much prefer going straight into the drink and be done with it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by A and C

No limits on VFR over water but the English Channel can get a bit haze that makes the horizon difficult to see, an extra hour or so with an instructor brushing up the instrument flying to a point that you can hold good straight & level flight may well be a good idea if you are going to fly all but the shortest route across the water.

Agreed. Over sea haze, it's much better for everything but lookout to act as if you're in cloud: fly by reference to instruments, just keep alternating between that and a heads-out lookout - which does need a good degree of cockpit discipline, but is perfectly achievable by any reasonably current PPL.

G

[terry holloway]

Originally Posted by piperboy84

When did that happen, what are the new rules?

As for a PPL making the long crossings, as said above get some straight and level training. Twice on the Weymouth to Jersey crossing with good VFR forecast I couldn't see a damned thing thru the sea mist apart from the odd glimpse of the whitecaps.

A few years back I was talking to an ex BA captain from Belfast who flew his RV regularly across the water to Scotland, me being a novice asked him what he thought the best crossing altitude was. He was of the firm opinion that no more than 200 AMSL was his preferred height because if the engine quits he did not want to endure the long period of time it took gliding down from say 8000 while running the bitter recriminations and regrets about life including cursing his ex wives and girlfriends over and over while dawdling along at best glide. He'd much prefer going straight into the drink and be done with it.

A long time ago! There used to be a low level VFR corridor from Dover to Cap Gis Nez at 1,500 ft ( I think!). In the 60s there was a lightship on the route! However these days one flies in the open FIR outside of controlled airspace, which means higher altitudes are available. That said, there are a lot of miiliary danger zones in the wider bit of the channel and a radio call is needed to cross them. Occasionally they say no so sufficient fuel is needed for detours!

[piperboy84]

Occasionally they say no so sufficient fuel is needed for detours!

Lord don't I know that one, I had a hurried departure from Cherbourg with no internet connection to file a plan and ended up circling mid channel south of the military zone for 45 minutes in the pissing rain trying to figure out plan B because the zones were active and crossing them was refused. Ended up doing a huge detour back to the southwest skirting between the Islands and mil zones and reaching land near a place called Dunkswell for a unplanned landing in Swansea for the evening. A one hour crossing ended up a two and a half hour magical mystery tour! All ended well, the plane performed beautifully and the natives of SW Wales do enjoy a piss up.

[ETOPS]

Flyingcope

Hope you have picked up some useful tips

Don't forget to listen for that slight (but recognisable) change in engine note..............2 miles after passing the coast

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by terry holloway

A long time ago! There used to be a low level VFR corridor from Dover to Cap Gis Nez at 1,500 ft ( I think!). In the 60s there was a lightship on the route!

Hythe-Ambleteuse, via the Varne Lightship, at 1500 on the 'Channel QNH...! Nostalgia ain't wot it used to be...

[ak7274]

Originally Posted by ETOPS

Flyingcope

Hope you have picked up some useful tips

Don't forget to listen for that slight (but recognisable) change in engine note..............2 miles after passing the coast

I used to hear that too.

Then I realised that on coasting out,as I looked over my shoulder to check I had indeed coasted out, the Headset cable was taught against my shoulder and pulled the earpiece away from my ear. It never sounded the same when I tried to adjust it.

[terry holloway]

What none of us have said clearly enough to the thread starter, is that it's not that difficult and it's great fun to fly into and around Europe!!

[The Old Fat One]

op,

Be advised when revising your ditching drills (which if you don't do, Darwin has control) that many articles you will find on t'internet on sea survival are not written by survival instructors, they are frequently written by well meaning, but often misguided amateurs.

A quick crash course (no pun intended)

the principles of survival are (in strict priority order):

protection
location
water
food

Sea survival wise you can forget water and food, you will be dead long before they are a factor. (unless you are planning on crossing the open ocean).

Protection means, protection from drowning - a proper well fitted, serviceable life preserver is a must (if not carried, Darwin has control...)

Following on, protection means protection from the cold. On average you will die in 30 minutes to two hours in UK waters from hypothermia in the winter months, but be aware your body parts, specifically your hands will be useless in after just 10 minutes or so. An immersion suit will extend this time, a modern dinghy will extend it for more than long enough to get rescued...ASSUMING...

Location. Nobody mentioned it above ( I rest my case). IF YOU DON'T GET OUT A MAYDAY, YOU WILL ONE LUCKY BOY TO SURVIVE. A acknowledged mayday with an accurate position will ensure someone will get to you promptly. No mayday...its in the lap of the gods. However, a modern locator beacon may get the job done as well....but **** it, get a mayday out!!!

Location. A modern locator beacon will again, massively enhance your chances of survival.

Bottom line, most pilots can ditch successfully and stats prove that. Regrettably most (private) pilots then perish in the sea and stats prove that too.

No skills, no kit...Darwin has control.

Hope you learnt something.

PS

Don't be tempted to fly low level over the oggin...them sea birds make a right mess of your face.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Quite right, the engine doesn't know it's over water but sometimes they do stop! Therefore you need to read up on water "landing" technique and be dressed to survive.

... or believe the book figures that say that if you take the shortest crossing and scrape along the bottom of CAS you're never out of gliding reach of land.

(And it's not always looking at water and ships - on my first crossing I saw neither, as the channel between the cliffs at each side was filled with fog.)

[terry holloway]

Originally Posted by The Old Fat One

op,

Be advised when revising your ditching drills (which if you don't do, Darwin has control) that many articles you will find on t'internet on sea survival are not written by survival instructors, they are frequently written by well meaning, but often misguided amateurs.

There is a very good and professionally written Sea Survivlal document issued by GASCo.
I don't think the even better RAF documents are available outside of the military.

[Chuck Glider]

Regarding the concern about engines over open water, I read long ago that many engine problems arise when something is changed so I have always adjusted settings and made whatever checks I thought appropriate before coasting out and then tried to fly a steady course to my landfall. So far so good.

'Automatic rough' over water is, of course, nonsense but I have found that the air tends to be relatively smooth and non-turbulent on sea crossings so perhaps the engine note may be more apparent in the relative calm, giving rise to the idea but mostly I think it's nervousness from being out of one's comfort zone.

The channel short crossing to Cap Gris Nez, which I imagine would be your initiation to the business, is relatively short and is probably quite busy with sea traffic. There are longer sea crossings available within the UK much less frequented by shipping below and they can feel quite lonely.

[custardpsc]

why wait to finish your ppl? nothing to stop you doing this as dual cross country...

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by custardpsc

why wait to finish your ppl? nothing to stop you doing this as dual cross country...

Good idea. A rental agency will probably require that a first cross-channel flight be undertaken dual, so you might as well get their wish out of the way.

(Personally I don't see much difference between cross-country and cross-water, but it's part of the rental business I suppose...)