Logbook and training syllabus
Thread Starter
Logbook and training syllabus
Someone I know started training at a north London Airfield then after moving house decided to complete his training at an airfield to the west of London.
On showing his logbook to the CFI, the instructor as he put it 'had a go at him' because he had only done practice forced landings after flying solo out of the circuit. Not my friends fault, he had actually badgered the instructor for forced landing training. He also overheard the CFI saying to another instructor that the logbook 'looked like a lash up'.
Does 'lash up' in this context just mean as hoc lessons with no logical sequence? Or was the CFI implying he had falsified his logbook? I suspect the former but he felt the CFI was so hostile he had one lesson there then went elsewhere despite having paid for a years membership.
On showing his logbook to the CFI, the instructor as he put it 'had a go at him' because he had only done practice forced landings after flying solo out of the circuit. Not my friends fault, he had actually badgered the instructor for forced landing training. He also overheard the CFI saying to another instructor that the logbook 'looked like a lash up'.
Does 'lash up' in this context just mean as hoc lessons with no logical sequence? Or was the CFI implying he had falsified his logbook? I suspect the former but he felt the CFI was so hostile he had one lesson there then went elsewhere despite having paid for a years membership.
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I cannot comment on the meaning of "lash-up" - as it sounds somewhat of a "colloquial chav" term to me... Doesn't really sound like a good experience!
Why did he pay a year's membership prior to taking a "trial" lesson? Don't you want to feel comfortable where you're learning? Make sure the instructors are nice / compatible? Ensure the structure suits your needs?
There are quite a few clubs in west of London, so at least you know there are a few options! I personally would have asked for my membership back - stating that clearly, the unprofessional attitude displayed isn't compatible with me and that you made a mistake coming in.
despite having paid for a years membership.
There are quite a few clubs in west of London, so at least you know there are a few options! I personally would have asked for my membership back - stating that clearly, the unprofessional attitude displayed isn't compatible with me and that you made a mistake coming in.
Thread Starter
He had already clocked up 30 odd hours in the same type of aircraft so didn't see any point in a trial lesson, just wanted to complete his licence. Not sure if the issue would have shown up if he had just booked a trial lesson anyway.
Flying Schools virtually all the same!!!
They all forget you as a student is the customer, and the provider of their livelihood.
Treat the school and their staff like you would a business deal, after all that's what you are in essence doing.
Polite but firm, and stand your ground.
They all forget you as a student is the customer, and the provider of their livelihood.
Treat the school and their staff like you would a business deal, after all that's what you are in essence doing.
Polite but firm, and stand your ground.
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Flying Schools virtually all the same!!!
They all forget you as a student is the customer, and the provider of their livelihood.
Treat the school and their staff like you would a business deal, after all that's what you are in essence doing.
Polite but firm, and stand your ground.
They all forget you as a student is the customer, and the provider of their livelihood.
Treat the school and their staff like you would a business deal, after all that's what you are in essence doing.
Polite but firm, and stand your ground.
I run a flying school in the UK and what you suggest certainly isn't the case. In the competitive world in which we all operate, good customer experience, quality of training and safety are sacred goals. I cannot think of a UK school - and I know plenty - which operates in the way you suggest!
Last edited by terry holloway; 11th Feb 2017 at 22:16. Reason: Spelling and grammar!
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I can second what Terry says, I have been to the school he runs several times and been very well received both as a passer by (just paying my landing fees) and as a paying customer for an aerobatic lesson. Instructors were first rate, as was the welcome every time.
Most of the schools I have been to have been relatively pleasant, there have been a few which were more geared towards the "pilot farm" which I generally find less friendly rather than the warm club atmosphere that I look for. We are allowed to be different and seek different places.
That's it - students are customers, they pay their hard earned cash for the lessons, and nobody should EVER be treated like that - it is their career, surely they should at the very least act professional! It is just damn right rude! It's not his fault that he didn't receive the training that they themselves deem best...!
That kind of behaviour - in this day and age is a very very thin line. I know a few that would have taken to social media and destroyed their online reputation for much less!
Most of the schools I have been to have been relatively pleasant, there have been a few which were more geared towards the "pilot farm" which I generally find less friendly rather than the warm club atmosphere that I look for. We are allowed to be different and seek different places.
That's it - students are customers, they pay their hard earned cash for the lessons, and nobody should EVER be treated like that - it is their career, surely they should at the very least act professional! It is just damn right rude! It's not his fault that he didn't receive the training that they themselves deem best...!
That kind of behaviour - in this day and age is a very very thin line. I know a few that would have taken to social media and destroyed their online reputation for much less!
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Like Terry, I have run a flying school in the UK. He's right - good customer experience, quality of training and safety are paramount. But on the other hand I do know some schools (not many) who forget that the student is the customer and as a consequence do not treat them well. Maybe they wont last long?
To the OP - your friend should put it down to experience and move on. Hopefully they have found a good school at which they now feel comfortable and at which their custom is valued.
I would say in defence of the "lash up" comment that I do sometimes see log books presented by a student prior to their GST that are a total shambles and in which its impossible to tell whether the training syllabus has been properly covered - very often these are when a student has moved between schools several times.
Incidentally when moving between schools it should be possible to get a copy of your training progress notes (student records) to take with you to the new school - gives them a bit more detail than just your logbook.
To the OP - your friend should put it down to experience and move on. Hopefully they have found a good school at which they now feel comfortable and at which their custom is valued.
I would say in defence of the "lash up" comment that I do sometimes see log books presented by a student prior to their GST that are a total shambles and in which its impossible to tell whether the training syllabus has been properly covered - very often these are when a student has moved between schools several times.
Incidentally when moving between schools it should be possible to get a copy of your training progress notes (student records) to take with you to the new school - gives them a bit more detail than just your logbook.
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I can second what Terry says, I have been to the school he runs several times and been very well received both as a passer by (just paying my landing fees) and as a paying customer for an aerobatic lesson. Instructors were first rate, as was the welcome every time.
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Not going to defend my flying school, we have been around 10 years and still have cash in the bank!
Back to the OP.
It is maybe not very professional to - in effect - mock another instructor/flying school by pointing out bits in your training record that seem a little out-of-sequence.
However, it is also not very professional to hide from a new student the fact that things are perhaps going to be done a little differently at the new school!
I suppose the balance is to be found in the way that one handles/expresses this.
Sometimes people click, sometimes they klunk. I suppose your flight showed that you and this second school were not the ideal match.
Good to find out now rather than after a few fruitless lessons. Learning to fly - while tough at times - should also be enjoyable.
Finally, I would simply - and politely - ask for your membership back. Don't ask, don't get.
As for a lash-up - know what they meant. Usually a scruffy, corrected logbook with scribbled entries. Usually caused by instructor encouraging student to start making all their own entries (a good thing) but then being to time-pressed to supervised properly (hence the amendments) and hurriedly putting in corrections (hence scribbled!).
I think it means more to instructors than it would mean to a student. After all, if the student knew better, then they wouldn't have a logbook like that. So not the student's fault. But if you want them to change, you need to tell them the current logbook state is not good. And hence back to the "professional" point above.
Back to the OP.
It is maybe not very professional to - in effect - mock another instructor/flying school by pointing out bits in your training record that seem a little out-of-sequence.
However, it is also not very professional to hide from a new student the fact that things are perhaps going to be done a little differently at the new school!
I suppose the balance is to be found in the way that one handles/expresses this.
Sometimes people click, sometimes they klunk. I suppose your flight showed that you and this second school were not the ideal match.
Good to find out now rather than after a few fruitless lessons. Learning to fly - while tough at times - should also be enjoyable.
Finally, I would simply - and politely - ask for your membership back. Don't ask, don't get.
As for a lash-up - know what they meant. Usually a scruffy, corrected logbook with scribbled entries. Usually caused by instructor encouraging student to start making all their own entries (a good thing) but then being to time-pressed to supervised properly (hence the amendments) and hurriedly putting in corrections (hence scribbled!).
I think it means more to instructors than it would mean to a student. After all, if the student knew better, then they wouldn't have a logbook like that. So not the student's fault. But if you want them to change, you need to tell them the current logbook state is not good. And hence back to the "professional" point above.
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I suppose the balance is to be found in the way that one handles/expresses this.
There is no need for any sarky comment, nor is there the need to brag about how much better your school is! Especially not in front of the client. You act professionally, and SHOW the client how much better your school is, don't tell them - words mean little to people who know nothing better, and will never know until they have seen it for themselves!
Then go for a flight of an hour and a half or so, and find out how much or how little the customer actually knows. Look at what appears to have been covered well, as well as where there is room for improvements. Make a decent entry into the new training records stating all aspects of the handling skills (or lack thereof), similar to an overall evaluation of skills similar to one you would do before sending a student for test and put a plan of action to get them up to speed. Have a look at where they are with regards to groundschool, and again evaluate for yourself if some of the key concepts have been understood, make another plan of action for the groundschool.
It really is that simple, and you'd have a very happy customer at the end of the day, who may well keep renting from you for years to come!
Not going to defend my flying school, we have been around 10 years and still have cash in the bank!
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Haha Heston - I've been getting ready for it since I posted it...
It just seemed to be a slightly weird comment to make before answering a post! I don't know why anyone would start a reply on this topic with that sentence. Although I thought XA was based much much further north than West of London.
It just seemed to be a slightly weird comment to make before answering a post! I don't know why anyone would start a reply on this topic with that sentence. Although I thought XA was based much much further north than West of London.
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Hi,
Started my post that way because it looked - to me - as though there was the beginning of "thread drift" with flying schools saying: it wasnae me!
I wanted to disclose that I run a flying school, but then went straight on to say: to get back to the OP's point.......
Definitely wasn't us: after all, we are in another country!
Cue: https://www.facebook.com/StrathavenA...type=3&theater and https://www.facebook.com/StrathavenA...type=3&theater
Started my post that way because it looked - to me - as though there was the beginning of "thread drift" with flying schools saying: it wasnae me!
I wanted to disclose that I run a flying school, but then went straight on to say: to get back to the OP's point.......
Definitely wasn't us: after all, we are in another country!
Cue: https://www.facebook.com/StrathavenA...type=3&theater and https://www.facebook.com/StrathavenA...type=3&theater
Many schools that I know of stick to the numbered order of the exercises. As a result they nearly always carry out 16 after first solo. We always do at least some PFLs and give the skills to find another airfield should our single runway become blocked.
It is a requirement to supply student records if a member changes schools but a school can only do so if asked.
I suspect the school in question may not have been asked.
It is a requirement to supply student records if a member changes schools but a school can only do so if asked.
I suspect the school in question may not have been asked.
