Buying MOGAS from petrol stations

[Jan Olieslagers]

The explosive power of the vapour from a few liters of gasoline is not to be underestimated!

Do I recall right that this is the main reason to refuel as soon after landing as possible? Tanks empty => no danger, tanks full => limited danger, tanks part-full => high danger?

[ChickenHouse]

We ran a Contenental 0-200 on Mogas for years without any issues, then we developed a loss of power during climb out. The carburrettor had been replaced prior to the loss of power and eveything else checked out. I went flying with the pilot to see for myself. I wish I hadn't, it was very uncomfortable feeling as the engine sagged at 3-400 feet. I was very pleased when we got back on the ground. As we were short on ideas it was suggested that we dumped the fuel
(the aircraft was flown regularly so the fuel wasn't old). The problem which had occurred on each of the previous flights went away and has not returned.
We run solely on Avgas now. Relatively fuel is cheap and accidents are expensive.

Mogas or Autofuel? The first should have been no problem, but modern fuel for cars is a complicated issue. Even the standard Ethanol test does fail on certain car fuels, due to modern additives fetching chemical compounds - especially the high power versions. To be on a safer side with gasoline from a car station requires much more research then it used to be before.

[xrayalpha]

Away from avgas/mogas etc. and back to the OP:

The BBC article is well wrong.

The regs in the UK are very very complex, with some dating back to the 1920s.

A good, reliable summary is linked to from here:

Carriage and Storage of Petrol and Diesel | Regulations | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA

As mentioned before, petrol stations can serve as little as the want - or not at all!

In many cases, to help stranded motorists and reduce staff training costs, they limit to one 5l plastic can. But that is usually their choice.

The 30l storage limit in a vehicle is for people who keep the stuff in their car: perhaps you live in a flat and can't keep it there and park on the street?

233l is quite a lot. We fill up to 10 20l jerry cans at our local supermarket. First, that is under the 233l. Second, the pumps stop at 100l and can only be used twice before you have to pay!

We spoke with the local petroleum officer before the petrol station opened, the supermarket's regional fuel manager on the day it opened (with the council chap standing with us) and the staff.

As the council chap said: we would rather have people who know what they are doing, doing it in a reasonable manner. At the self-service petrol pumps at midnight we have seen people on CCTV putting fuel in open buckets!

[Rod1]

I have been flying using mogas extensively for over 10 years. My LAA aircraft was one of the first to be cleared for use with E5 mogas (ethanol). I transport up to 3 X 20L cans in the boot. I would never use a leaky can and I use a purpose made siphoning tube. No issues, no problems, big cost saving. My alternative would be a 40 min round trip with a £14 landing fee to fill up with Avgas 91UL at about a 1/3 more per L. One word of warning, mogas in the UK is a very different product to the US.

Rod1

[Mariner9]

Mogas or Autofuel?

This has appeared on this thread from a couple of posters suggesting that the two are somehow different.

This is not the case. "Autofuel" (not an approved technical term but I presume meant to represent gasoline intended for petrol engined cars) is a Mogas (an approved technical abbreviation for motor gasoline). All Mogas (or autofuel if you really must) including unleaded and super unleaded gasoline sold on a forecourt in the UK must comply with the BS EN228 specification. That specification allows (but does not mandate) the presence of ethanol up to certain limits.

Certain airfields dispense ethanol-free Mogas, but that will also comply with BS EN228. Some Mogas sold from forecourts may also be ethanol free, but most isn't nowadays.

Aviation authorities appear to be losing the fear of ethanol at about the same rate as they are losing the fear of using GPS as primary nav.

[Chuck Glider]

Originally Posted by xrayalpha

The regs in the UK are very very complex, with some dating back to the 1920s.

They derive from a UN document, ADR, of which Annex A, Part 1, para 1.1.3.1 states:

Exemptions related to the nature of the transport operation

The provisions laid down in ADR do not apply to:

(a) The carriage of dangerous goods by private individuals where the goods in question
are packaged for retail sale and are intended for their personal or domestic use or for
their leisure or sporting activities provided that measures have been taken to prevent
any leakage of contents in normal conditions of carriage. When these goods are
flammable liquids carried in refillable receptacles filled by, or for, a private individual,
the total quantity shall not exceed 60 litres per receptacle and 240 litres per transport
unit. Dangerous goods in IBCs, large packagings or tanks are not considered to be
packaged for retail sale;

[patowalker]

Originally Posted by xrayalpha

The BBC article is well wrong.

Which is quite obvious from mistakes like

It must be kept in
a) in a shed
b) in a garage
c) Outside no more than six metres from your house - ie, at the end of a drive.

[Forfoxake]

Originally Posted by onetrack

Be aware that many petrol stations fuel tanks are contaminated with water and rust and are notorious for supplying contaminated fuel - and steel jerrycans are notorious for producing flakes of rust and paint as well.
As a result, make 100% sure, your fuel supplied from jerrycans into your aircraft is completely and thoroughly filtered through a funnel fitted with a mesh screen and a chamois.

I have never, repeat never, found any contamination in any car fuel that I have obtained (mainly in the UK) to use in my Rotax-powered aeroplanes in over 20 years. Nevertheless, I do try to stick to the LAA recommendation to use fuel from high turnover outlets (mainly supermarkets recently). On the other hand, it was common to find water in the Avgas obtained from the bowser when I flew Cessna 150's etc.

However, I have often found paint flakes from the inside of metal Jerry Cans which is why I always filter the fuel into the tanks. I find Mr Funnels excellent.

I appreciate that there is a very small risk of vapour igniting when it is poured into the tank (particularly on cold, crisp and dry winter days) which is why I use conductive cans and funnels. The LAA has a leaflet that outlines how you can overcome this risk by connecting together the can, funnel and aeroplane and earthing the lot.

Incidentally, ROTAX engines are specifically designed to run on unleaded petrol and I have never had any problem running them on this, even with the recent introduction of 5% alcohol in unleaded (although I understand that this has caused big problems in some fibre glass tanks). Also bear in mind that it is much easier to fuel from cans when you are only using 10-15lph rather than 25-35lph!

Having said all this, I now also have a share in a Lycoming powered aircraft and we have to travel to nearby airfields to pump in Avgas and keep a few cans at base for emergencies.

[kevkdg]

Thanks for all the replies.

Does the likes of "super unleaded" as opposed to standard unleaded generally contain less ethanol?

[9 lives]

Aviation authorities appear to be losing the fear of ethanol

The fear of ethanol is based upon chemistry (which won't change with time). Ethanol is chemically incompatible with some fuel system components and can cause corrosion in others. Enough ethanol blended into gasoline will also affect the energy density of the fuel (so it runs lean). When I flew the ethanol fueled C 150 (modified for the role), it was weird to see a fuel flow exceeding 15GHP on takeoff!

[RatherBeFlying]

At our field in Canada, we go to a nearby airport to pump avgas into drums, 205 l. With 4 drums to fill they appreciate our business.

[Maoraigh1]

Almost all my 43 hours flying in 2016 were on Tesco EN228, in an O200. Avgas was only used when refuelling away from home. The fuel tested alcohol free.
I recall the regulation on how much you can carry is EU, and is huge - 205L for your own use. Until Brexit.

[Forfoxake]

Originally Posted by kevkdg

Thanks for all the replies.

Does the likes of "super unleaded" as opposed to standard unleaded generally contain less ethanol?

For a while after 5% ethanol was added to all standard unleaded in Scotland, I found that super unleaded from eg. Esso did not contain any alcohol and was soon approved by the LAA in aeroplanes permitted to use unleaded petrol. However, a couple of years ago 5% ethanol appeared in super unleaded too, at least in the west of Scotland. I presume it is now the same in most of the UK which is why, with certain precautions and in certain engines, use of standard unleaded with 5% ethanol can now be approved in LAA aircraft. Strangely, however microlights with the same engines and similar or identical fuel systems were permitted to use unleaded petrol containing ethanol throughout.

[onetrack]

Remember that ethanol will attack any natural rubber, plain plastic or fibreglass components in fuel systems and damage them.
Fuel system components need to be made from ethanol-resistant materials when using fuels with ethanol in them.
Ethanol also strips rust, varnish, and gums from inside fuel tanks and fuel systems and this debris can block fuel lines, filters and small orifices in components such as carburettors.

[ChickenHouse]

Due to the EUs unrestricted subintellectual green ideology warfare it is disputable whether the usual Autofuel STCs cover some of the current car gas station fuels. Typically the STC is issued on the basis of EN228, version of February 1999, but the eurocrats changed that to also put food and edibles in our tanks with EN228:2004 and EN228:2008.

Oil companies fight the bad chemical behavior of such mixed substances by restricting storage of fuel to 90 days after tap and adding additives, of which some fetch water and ethanol, thus rendering our basic ethanol tests virtually useless -> if you don't see a separation on the water test, it does not necessarily tell you there is no ethanol! Whether the water and ethanol fetched by additives is doing harm to the use in aviation is totally unclear.

[Shoestring Flyer]

Yes. Most 'ordinary' unleaded in the UK contains ethanol.
With 'Super unleaded' less so dependant on which part of the country you are in and which make fuel you use. Any Mogas you use in an LAA Permit aircraft needs to conform to EN228. Esso 'Super unleaded' conforms to EN228 and in the Midlands contains no ethanol currently if distributed from Kingsbury distribution centre, near Tamworth, to the petrol stations.
Ethanol is added, or not added, at the distribution centres around the UK and can vary depending on your location and make of fuel used. So your location can make it a lottery if ethanol is added or not to any fuel you may buy!

[kaitakbowler]

As to containers, had one of these for the boat, expensive but so is dirty fuel in the long run, and shared in a group a/c not so expensive.

Flo N' Go Duramax 53L Wheeled Fuel Transporter - Marshall Industrial Supplies.

Paul M

[kevkdg]

could order from states quite a bit cheaper


Scepter 06792 Flo N'Go DuraMax 14 Gallon Transfer Fuel Caddy Gas Can | eBay

[Mariner9]

The fear of ethanol is based upon chemistry (which won't change with time).

Actually it has and will continue to do so. There is loads of research being undertaken by the oil companies and bodies such as ASTM, EI etc concerning the chemistry of ethanol in fuel which has greatly increased our understanding. Furthermore bodies such as the LAA and EAA are looking into the aviation aspects of the fuel. Regulations and recommendations concerning use of Mogas in aircraft are changing, albeit slowly. Rod1 commented above that his aircraft has been cleared to run on E5 which is a perfect illustration of this point.

Oil companies fight the bad chemical behavior of such mixed substances by restricting storage of fuel to 90 days after tap and adding additives, of which some fetch water and ethanol, thus rendering our basic ethanol tests virtually useless -> if you don't see a separation on the water test, it does not necessarily tell you there is no ethanol! Whether the water and ethanol fetched by additives is doing harm to the use in aviation is totally unclear.

That post, with respect, is typical of many on Pprune concerning ethanol, which routinely contain an eclectic mix of facts, myths, half truths, and faulty conclusions therefrom. Water and ethanol fetching additives? There are additives (IPA) that can deal with low level water contamination but those are in fact approved for use in aviation fuels including Avgas 100LL. Thus, the affect is not "totally unclear" Furthermore, its extremely rare to find IPA in Mogas (if you do its unlikely to contain ethanol for reasons I won't bore you with.)

There are no additives that "fetch" ethanol (though if you added enough water to a tank you could remove the ethanol from the fuel though I'd hardly class water as an additive).

The only part I sort of agree with is that a fuel that passes the separation test (note it was not designed as an an ethanol test though it can be an indicator of ethanol) may still contain ethanol. I again take issue with the "totally unknown affects" opinion though.

FWIW, I'm happy to use Mogas with or without ethanol subject to the following:

The aircraft doesn't have ethanol compatibility problems in fuel tank and lines.
The aircraft doesn't suffer from water ingress into the fuel tanks during rain
I'm not intending to fly hot and/or high.
The regulations allow me to do so.

M9 (Investigates fuel quality issues for a living and regularly flies on E5 Mogas)

[Geriaviator]

It's a very long time (45 yrs) since I was one of many owners taking part in the BGA trials of Mogas, in those days Four Star and leaded. We found that four-star made for a cleaner engine, while automotive multigrade oil gave far easier starting in winter and constant oil pressures instead of the sky-high when hot, very low when cold of Aeroshell 80/100. This was proven in countless aerotows mostly with Gipsy Major and Lycoming engines.

Today I'm years out of touch, and maybe today's unleaded motor fuel is not so prone to vapour locking. Our old-fashioned and doubtless dangerous demo was to pour a capful of Avgas on the concrete with a capful of Mogas beside it; the Mogas evaporates in seconds, the Avgas stays damp for much longer. If the fuel pump is attached to the hot crankcase the fuel may vapourise, resulting in a sudden silence. I demonstrated this in a VW-engined ultralight to great effect; every morning my faint scars remind me of rearranging the dashboard in the ensuing forced landing. After my 40 stitches were removed I went back to Avgas.