ADF required for IR(R) and IFR?
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
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MEDEX
I agree it's you, if the approach is in the database then there should no problem but that is not what was questioned.
Some people want to use GPS distance instead of DME distance for approaches, in the USA this is not a problem because you can't have a radio aid with the same ident within 50 miles, in Europe you can.
So ( to take Larnica as an example) there is a VOR/DME at the eastern end of the field and an NDB four miles off the western end of the field both with the same ident, in the old days no chance of confusion because three ident and only one per piece of radio kit.
Now if you punch into your GPS the ident you have the chance if you are not very careful the distance from the wrong point. Let's say you are doing the VOR/DME to the easterly runway but you have no DME so you put LCA into the box and mistakenly select the NDB instead of the DME, everything is plausible until you arrive at minima and you are eight miles from the airfield or you go around and no amount of left turn picks up the outbound raidial for the missed approach because you have yet to reach the VOR.
I am not aganst replacing DME with GPS distance but it should not be done in Europe until the multiple ident issue has been resolved.
Some people want to use GPS distance instead of DME distance for approaches, in the USA this is not a problem because you can't have a radio aid with the same ident within 50 miles, in Europe you can.
So ( to take Larnica as an example) there is a VOR/DME at the eastern end of the field and an NDB four miles off the western end of the field both with the same ident, in the old days no chance of confusion because three ident and only one per piece of radio kit.
Now if you punch into your GPS the ident you have the chance if you are not very careful the distance from the wrong point. Let's say you are doing the VOR/DME to the easterly runway but you have no DME so you put LCA into the box and mistakenly select the NDB instead of the DME, everything is plausible until you arrive at minima and you are eight miles from the airfield or you go around and no amount of left turn picks up the outbound raidial for the missed approach because you have yet to reach the VOR.
I am not aganst replacing DME with GPS distance but it should not be done in Europe until the multiple ident issue has been resolved.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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EU Reg 965/2012 CAT.IDE.345 covers this...
(d) Aeroplanes shall have sufficient navigation equipment to ensure that, in the event of the failure of one item of equipment at any stage of the flight, the remaining equipment shall allow safe navigation in accordance with the flight plan.
(e) Aeroplanes operated on flights in which it is intended to land in IMC shall be equipped with suitable equipment capable of providing guidance to a point from which a visual landing can be performed for each aerodrome at which it is intended to land in IMC and for any designated alternate aerodrome.
So absolutely no requirement for either NDB or DME since 2012 in EASA airspace. However, that doesn’t mean it’s not ever ordered by operators....
My last 2 types were B777 and A380 in BA. No NDB on later B777 if I remember right, and the A380 didn’t even have NDB as an option.
(d) Aeroplanes shall have sufficient navigation equipment to ensure that, in the event of the failure of one item of equipment at any stage of the flight, the remaining equipment shall allow safe navigation in accordance with the flight plan.
(e) Aeroplanes operated on flights in which it is intended to land in IMC shall be equipped with suitable equipment capable of providing guidance to a point from which a visual landing can be performed for each aerodrome at which it is intended to land in IMC and for any designated alternate aerodrome.
So absolutely no requirement for either NDB or DME since 2012 in EASA airspace. However, that doesn’t mean it’s not ever ordered by operators....
My last 2 types were B777 and A380 in BA. No NDB on later B777 if I remember right, and the A380 didn’t even have NDB as an option.
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alex - that aib report is horrid reading. The real issue it highlights is the use of GPS in 'direct to' vs using the proper navaid ( ndb or gps overlay) . This highlights the need for training, and the recent changes requiring PBN testing to use PBN. Also the dangers inherent in a CDI source changeover switch...
