Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Touring

Old 23rd Aug 2016, 15:38
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Touring

Apologies if this is very vague, but I was wondering if anyone has any idea of the rough cost of touring in a light aircraft around Europe? About 5/6 different airports with say 5/600 mile legs approx? Obviously not taking into account accommodation etc

Thanks so much for any help!!

Last edited by Gulfstream757; 23rd Aug 2016 at 15:40. Reason: Typo
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 15:53
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It is a vague question but here's a rough idea for a 5 * 600 mile trip based on the 2 aircraft I own shares in and routinely fly:

PA28: About GB £3,000 or £750/seat
Pioneer 300: About GB £750 or £375/seat

Both above include fuel, maintenance and engine fund but excludes airport landing/parking which could be anything from say £0 to £200/airport depending upon where you go.

Will cost more if you have to hire the aircraft.
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 16:14
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Airspeed of light aircraft about 120 mph, 600 miles are roughly 5 hours.
Hourly TCOs from £100 to £400, so £500 to £2.000 for one 600 miles trip.
Large airport fees excluded, some may charge £200, even £700+ for landing.
For a 5/6 airports trip 600 miles each leg -> £2.500/£12.000.
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 18:39
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Thanks very much guys for your help, I can actually give a little bit more info it it helps, would you have a more accurate idea for a rented 172N/M and only looking at 3/4 small strips/airfields again with the same leg length and say a 5 nights at each field

Again thanks so much!
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 20:23
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Sticking to round numbers, a rented 172 @ 100kt @ £200/hour makes the sums very easy - £2 per mile. (The ones I fly go slightly faster than that and cost slightly less than that, but only about enough to take account of the faffing around on the ground at each end of each flight.)


And if you're looking at 50 gallons capacity at 10gph and a one hour reserve then in round numbers you're limited to legs of around 400 miles anyway. (You can do better than this, perhaps quite a bit better, if you're good at leaning and know your particular aircraft's performance, and don't pick a day with a headwind.)


Then there's whatever the owner charges for having the aircraft away from base. If there's a minimum charge of three hours per day (about what they could get if the aircraft remained at the club) regardless of how little you use it then your "5 nights at each field" could get very expensive indeed.


You might find a better deal than that - I know one 172 that's available for £99/hour plus £99/day, but I'm not sure that deal would extend to taking it out of club use for the best part of a month!
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 20:36
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You will find that, whatever the costs, a few trips around Europe flying and planning yourself or with a friend stopping at various airfields and rubbing noses with other aircraft great and small will be events that will remain with you when you get to an age when flying is no longer an option in your life.

FF
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Old 23rd Aug 2016, 22:46
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Alternatively an LAA type two seater especially group owned is much less expensive - if slower at 95 mph than your 100kt 172.

Free landings a many French airfields help too. For a long trip, time in the air and stage length is less pressing, but admittedly not space usually for loads of luggage.

I'm hoping to make it to Blois by 80 hp Rans for their annual big 'ULM' exhibition this w/end complete with my tent and basic camping gear.. Stopping for Customs at Abbeville en route. Then after the w/end continuing further down into France.
Hourly cost is "optically£ fuel only, say £20 per hour as ownership overheads are there whether flown or not !

mike hallam.
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Old 24th Aug 2016, 08:34
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Thanks very much guys for your help, I can actually give a little bit more info it it helps, would you have a more accurate idea for a rented 172N/M and only looking at 3/4 small strips/airfields again with the same leg length and say a 5 nights at each field

Again thanks so much!
In that case you can easily figure it out by yourself in detail.
Just do the usual flight preparation and add the other costs.
Excel will be your friend.

Your thorough flight preparation will give you:
* route planned
* flight hours planned
* airfields
* towns and locations
You have already
* daily rate
* hourly rate
* fuel flow from POH (assuming dry lease)

Just sum up:
daily rate times day rate
+ flight hours flown times hourly rate
+ fuel consumption from calculation times fuel cost
+ landing fees from the internet
+ accommodation from hotel/pensions planned (tent possible?)
+ ...
+ don't forget Oil, at 20-25 hours you may most probably need to re-oil some quarts in a C172.

I suspect you will end up at about £ 1.75 to 2.5 per mile flown for a C172N.
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Old 24th Aug 2016, 14:13
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Alternatively an LAA type two seater especially group owned is much less expensive - if slower at 95 mph than your 100kt 172.
Bit of a generalisation there Mike - my 2 seat LAA type cruises at 130kts and is thus both faster and cheaper than a 172 (and much more fun of course)
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Old 24th Aug 2016, 14:32
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Done it a few times in a PA28 and a 182. Surprisingly affordable to get around, especially if planned well in advance. I would suggest you look at shorter legs, as 4 up with luggage will restrict how far you can go anyway. I doubt my bladder would allow me to do a 4 hour leg anyway....

Useful help for planning is Fly in France

Split 4 ways, its well worth it if you know the costs in advance and plan accordingly.
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Old 24th Aug 2016, 22:34
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@funfly, well said and very true!
I just burned many Euros for a one-day-trip to the sea with my girls. I´m sure I won´t miss the Euros in half a year, but we will certainly remember a quality family trip. I still remember the trips we did 20 years ago in a 30€/hr motorglider landing on every airstrip we could find on the coast, living for free in a tent next to the airplane...it was worth it! And don´t laugh, 30€ (DM at this time) were serious money when I was younger.

@Gulfstream, land at glider and microlight sites, they tend to be cheaper and good fun, especially on weekends, accomodation will mostly come along somehow. I think that is valid anywhere in Europe.
I would recommend not to fly much more than 250NM per leg if you don´t fly a fast machine. There´s too many things to see, too many people to meet and 400NM in a C172 tend to get boring, at least for me.
Fly club airplanes at a reasonable price, even consider joining a club far away from your home airfield. It might be worth it if you want to fly longer trips regularly! I know of a guy in Holland who rents in central Germany for his trips.
Since you come from Ireland...seriously consider renting in Central Europe, if you don´t want to do the transit every time. That´s the good thing about an EASA-license, you could fly D-/PH-/OY-/whatever-reg....and a Ryanair return-trip over to the continent is sometimes cheaper than an hour rental!

So yes, do it as long and much as possible if it´s fun for you, share it with friends and build long lasting memories. I guess sitting in a rocking chair looking back what one could have done is not what we want.
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 17:21
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200 EUR/Hour

I think the 200 GBP/hour is a bit much, I would estimate closer to 200 EUR/hour or roughly 2 EUR per NM. I actually did precisely what you are describing in a 172M at intervals before buying my own plane. Now I think of the cost in fuel terms--roughly 100 EUR per hour (depending on where you buy your fuel). As people have said, you will have an issue getting a rental for that long. Your best best is most likely not a club or flight school, but private owner.

If you can find a mogas burner, that will help you on costs.

And, as others have said, you'll remember the trip forever!
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 19:16
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@MoateAir: I am afraid the "Fly in France" website should not really be recommended. With all respect this one-person initiative merits, it seems to be out of date. It even still mentions and discusses paper charts from Jeppesen. And it does not mention the all-important info about military low-level flying, or I should have missed it.

Besides, the amount of spelling errors gave me the creeps but it seems I am more sensitive in this area than most people and particularly most English people.
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Old 25th Aug 2016, 21:59
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If I could offer some advice on continental touring in a spamcan as follows:

Don't do more distance than a tank full of gas a day, i.e. 400 miles tops, any more becomes hard work instead of a holiday and the best laid plans of mice and men get in the way of rigid schedules, things such as weather and hangovers knacker up early morning starts.

4 people plus bags in a 172 is pushing things, best do it with no more than 2 so you're reasonably light and not arguing over schedules and trying to please everyone.

You'll find that the French and Spanish ATC are fine and used to dealing with duffers, although the Spanish seem a bit more rigid on paperwork and flight plans, a hold over from Franco's days I'd suppose.

Download a few apps for economy hotels like Ibus so you can book them before getting into the circuit and if they are all full move on down the line to the next town/airstrip and try again.

Plan on getting your ass reamed on avgas except in Jersey where they are giving it away for a song.

Take a socket set and some screwdrivers for the odd fix that will inevitably pop up.

And most importantly enjoy yourself, flying over there is a great experience and good learning curve.

Think that's about it!
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Old 26th Aug 2016, 07:12
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Don't do more distance than a tank full of gas a day, i.e. 400 miles tops, any more becomes hard work instead of a holiday and the best laid plans of mice and men get in the way of rigid schedules, things such as weather and hangovers knacker up early morning starts.

4 people plus bags in a 172 is pushing things, best do it with no more than 2 so you're reasonably light and not arguing over schedules and trying to please everyone.
4 adults plus very, very light bags may leave fuel for something like 30 minutes flights. I t would be very hard to do the many fuel stops a day and definitely boring to have a day mainly at the tap ... 2 plus bags will allow full fuel.

From experience traveling with a non-pilot friend I think max. 2.5 hours legs, probably 250 miles a leg and two legs a day are nicely acceptable, if your focus is on flying. If your passenger is not addicted to aircraft, or you do sight seeing, I do buy the max 400 miles a day right away.
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