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advice for Munich?

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advice for Munich?

Old 24th Jul 2016, 09:35
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advice for Munich?

I am going to have some month working in Munich, Germany, and did assume it is easy to fly there as it is a major city in a developed country (I thought).

First, I found out I am not allowed to land at Munich International as a GA aircraft (WTF is that? No problem to go into Hartsfield–Jackson and these Bavarians ban all small travelers?). I was checking the nearby airfields and see some small ones on the charts. Quite bare minimum - I need min. 2,000ft, better 2,200ft for landing - or hard by other regulations (had a steep learning course into the higher details of "PPR", German "Flugleiterzwang" and the its & bits of IFR in southern German airspace during the last weeks - don't ask scratch head).

I now checked Moseburg (quite far and gras would not be preferred), Oberschleissheim (strange regulations for landing and obscure traffic pattern), Dach Au (gras and quite short), Jessen Wang (far out and who declared that tinyport as a "GA airfield for Munich" ??? ridiculous), Landhutt (no infrastructure and quite far) and Oberpfaffenhoffen (couldn't figure out exactly how to get landing permission there?). Somebody recommended Auksburg (??? that is 30+ nauticals out?).

My office will be a bit east of Munich and in the publications I find no suitable airfield in the vicinity.
Are there any unpublished hints, tipps for that area and how do I get contact to that hidden fields?
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 11:45
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You might look at Eggenfelden (EDME) that's about 35 NM east of Munich airport and has a hard runway that exceeds your length requirement.

Another option which is 25 NM north of Munich airport is Ingolstadt (ETSI) which has a monster runway and a full set of instrument approaches.
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 15:23
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Thanky, I also got some good PNs and will continue looking.
It is amazing how bad that town is reachable by air.
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 15:32
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Welcome to Bavaria! There are indeed regions (even in Europe) more welcoming to small aviation. That said, you could do yourself and others a favour by spelling correctly - that would win you a bit of respect but even then it is not going to be easy. There are NO places called Auksburg, Jessen Wang, Landhutt or Dach Au.

All that being said, I know a few private pilots living in or near München and they generally seem to fly out of EDML Landshut or EDMS Straubing - there might well be some reason.

how bad that town is reachable by air.
make that "by private plane" and you can go on being amazed.
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 15:47
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Thank you Jan Olieslager. EDML and EDMS are quite far, do they have usable infrastructure to travel to the east of Munich easily?

I have to apologize, I first started using an ancient device called "phone" and talked (some people will remember, a kind of audio conversation method ... ;-) ...) to people before I wrote my post. Only after that I looked at the charts for names, so I might have had some spellings incorrect, indeed, sorry. I will try to be more German-precise in the future. One pointed me to Muhldorf (another spelling mystery, does it have the umlaut or not? AIP and charts are inconsistent), which may be a viable option. One more for the folks flying in that area, is it feasible to cancel IFR on MUC approach and run VFR to one of the smaller airfields around, or does the Bavarian Ban of small aircraft includes use of the ILS?
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 16:45
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One can save a lot of trouble - winning a good deal of clarity - by referring to aerodromes by their coding, ICAO at best.

EDMY is indeed Mühldorf, and it does sport a hard runway of 850 metres, but then be aware it is at 1325 AMSL so density altitude might perhaps be a concern for you in these tropical days? Also, consulting http://www.airports.de/component/opt...d,277/lang,de/ , I see it is a "Sonderlandeplatz" which means they require PPR, plus they officially have local language only on the radio - and requirements tend to be strict, in all of Germany and especially in Bavaria. Then again, the information at that website has a certain reputation for being less than recent so it always pays to contact the airfield operator directly.

Regarding local transport options for EDML and EDMS I am not aware at all - I admit I avoid Bavaria like the pest, considering it mostly a rich people's place, though I must immediately add I recently met some very nice Bavarians obviously much richer than myself! - that is of course a generalisation - but I would recommend asking the local people. It should not be too hard to find the websites for these aerodromes and to get in touch with them through the given contact details. If that doesn't work, do feel free to PM me, I have some German and will be pleased to call them for you.

Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 24th Jul 2016 at 16:58.
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 18:20
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Maybe you would get in touch with the local club?

Fliegerverein München e.V. Flugschule Homepage
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Old 24th Jul 2016, 21:33
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Augsburg is a fair distance out, but it has good facilities and a train connection (via a short taxi ride) that takes 32 mins to Munich main station.

But it is a difficult region. Ironic that Franz Josef Strauss, after whom MUC was named, was a keen private pilot.
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 11:16
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Flying in Bavaria seems to have tasks for secret fraternities ...

I finally got an impression what a "Sonderlandeplatz" is, but am still struggling with the concept of airfields disappearing outside operational hours, which seem to be a major component of German thinking. After some talks I expect to see giant elevators moving airfields underground after hours.

I am in contact with EDMY now and it sounds quite well. Also, EDMA was named by quite a lot of people and may be the better field of choice - but, then I need to rent a car and drive almost 65 miles to office, which I did not expect.

What a messy area for "private" flying.
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 11:37
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Nothing unusual there. Even mid-sized and public airports like EBAW Antwerpen or EBCI Charleroi "disappear" at night. And sure enough I hear www regrets about UK fields closing early, perhaps at 6 or 7 pm? Even if the field is physically present, landing and taking off are explicitly prohibited.

Bar prior arrangements, of course, and bar emergencies - both might come with a price tag, though.
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 13:06
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What a messy area for "private" flying.
To put this a little bit into perspective: Downtown Munich is to Germany what Manhattan is to the United States. More or less. It is the most sought-after location to live and work, offers the best paid jobs and also has the highest prices for land and rent in Germany. It is close to mountains and lakes, cultural and historic sites and has the Oktoberfest, therefore it is in high demand with tourists as well.

How close to Manhattan can you fly with a small private plane? How long will it take with public transport to reach the town centre from there? I have landed in Teterboro once and can tell you, that you will reach Munich centre quicker from every airfield named in the posts above than Manhattan from Teterboro...

But you are right in so far as small airfields are not usually served well by public transport in Germany. Anywhere, not just Munich. Even if they let you land at Munich airport you need a taxi to get from the General Aviation Terminal to the Airline Terminals where the train station is.

The best would probably be long-term car rental (or actually buying a cheap car and selling it on after your stay) and pick one of the general aviation fields around Munich which suits your needs best (runway, VFR/IFR, night, hangar, ...). There is quite some choice within a 45 minute drive from downtown Munich. (The train from the large airport to the centre takes 25 minutes, so you won't be there any faster anyway!).

Regards
Max (from Munich originally...)
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 14:26
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I flew in and out of Munich Oberschleissheim in a C 182 amphibian last week, with no problem whatever. We spent the night, bought fuel and visted the museum with delight. I was very well accommodated by ATC both inbound, and then outbound (to Innsbruck). Indeed, routing VFR direct from Sylt to Oberschleissheim could not have been more convenient for me. I found the circuit at Oberschleissheim to be perfectly fine, as long as you read the procedure, and then looked for the landmarks. Probably the privilege to use such a convenient airport is linked to local area noise sensitivity, and a resulting unusual circuit shape, so I'm quite happy to accommodate that by following the procedures.

In general, I found last week's travel through Europe to be excellently accommodating and convenient. I felt no need to have negative expectations like:

...WTF is that? .... don't ask scratch head.....strange regulations for landing and obscure traffic pattern.....gras and quite short......far out and who declared that tinyport as a "GA airfield for Munich" ??? ridiculous.....no infrastructure and quite far......couldn't figure out exactly how to get landing permission there?.....??? that is 30+ nauticals out?).
With that attitude at the start of the effort, it appears to me that disappointment is inevitable. I built my own aerodrome here at home, so it is convenient for me. Every other aerodrome I use, I use with appreciation that it is there at all, and available for me to use - and I will accept their terms. If I don't like the terms, yes, I might scratch head, but will still smile, and follow the rules should I choose to use it.
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 14:58
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misconceptions...

"First, I found out I am not allowed to land at Munich International as a GA aircraft"

There is a GA terminal and you could land there - long term myth that one cannot. You h´may not want due to cost ;-) expect 200 EUR/pop and long hlding until they can fit you in

If you have to work Munich East, the Augsburg EDMA ist still good, just take a high speed train. Someone pointed out, pretty fast and comfortable.

Mühldorf EDMY is also good and has trains to Munich East railway station.

Oberschleissheim has a number of allowed flight movements. If you it still fits, it is a good place for a visitor.

Also depends if you want to come/go often or just once and park....

Good luck!
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 20:34
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I suggest looking at ETSI Ingolstadt. Quite a long way away from Munich, but there is a good fast train service into Munich, the service to GA is good at Ingolstadt and it is not expensive (or wasn't around 18 months ago), two good long runways, IFR if you need it..
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Old 25th Jul 2016, 20:48
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@ch.ess: Yes, I know there is a GAT at EDDM, but when I called they told me "no permission for aircraft below 2000kg MTOW". Did they fool me?
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Old 26th Jul 2016, 07:27
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I live in Munich and have flown from whatever airfield has been available for more than 20 years (Neubiberg (closed), Eggenfelden and now Jesenwang).

Munich is by far the absolutely worst place on this planet for GA. No discussion, no competition. Ever increasing property prices, treehuggers, no political lobby, and most importantly, arrogant, selfishly and ignorant behaviour by Munich pilots under the protection of Franz-Josef Strauss until he went and it was all too late.

Your options (if you can call them that) have been listed nicely in the contributions above, so I'd start investigating which ones could suit you and stop searching for other alternatives, because there aren't any, no matter how hard you look.
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Old 26th Jul 2016, 07:41
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Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers
I see it is a "Sonderlandeplatz" which means they require PPR
"Sonderlandeplatz" only means, amongst others, that they decide more or less themselves who they let in and when, and not necessarily that PPR is required. If so, it's normally implicit in the first radio contact and is not a big deal. Mühldorf is a very popular and busy field and won't make any problems. A "Verkehrslandeplatz" like Eggenfelden, on the other hand has an obligation to be manned and in operation during opening hours (unless NOTAM'ed).

Oberpfaffenhofen (EDMO) is only for MTOW > 2,000 kg, or "worthy business aircraft" (as they more or less state themselves).

Did you ask in Munich about VFR or IFR? I think they are less unlikely to let you in if you arrive IFR.
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Old 26th Jul 2016, 08:10
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Thanks for educating me, EDMJ.

Since you mentioned Neubiberg: what is its current status as an aerodrome? On satellite pictures I see a very short runway marked out, helicopter operations I should think? Military?
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Old 26th Jul 2016, 08:34
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Neubiberg is long since completely dead and gone. It's a park, and the local municipality has even explicitly forbidden flying model aircraft on the site (gliders included). The buildings to the North of the runway belong to the University of the German Armed Forces, who test various vehicles on the apron and taxiway remains

The runway markings you see on satellite pictures are the remains of a last-ditch attempt by the local flying club to make friends with the locals (after years of not giving a damn about people who don't actually like the sound of small aircraft): Two runways in succession were marked out on the +2,000m single runway. With an easterly wind, for example, you'd take off from RWY 07 West and land on RWY 07 East.

It didn't work. Neubiberg's licence was linked to that of the old Munich Airport, so when the latter closed in 1992, its slow death started and final closure was in 1997 (I think). Property developers had set their sights on the place - one of whom was a pilot in Neubiberg himself and behind the scenes did all he could to get the place closed - but I think fear of what had been more or less intentionally buried on the site over the years stopped those plans.

A small group of around 50 people managed to scupper plans to convert Fürstenfeldbruck into a GA airport for Munich a couple of years ago, and that is now also completely closed. That was the last available alternative.

In my 26 years in Munich I have witnessed the closure of three major airports (Riem, Neubiberg and Fürstenfeldbruck) and fourth will follow in the near future (the military airfield in Erding). An unparalleled waste of public infrastructure and resources.

Last edited by EDMJ; 26th Jul 2016 at 08:59. Reason: .
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Old 26th Jul 2016, 12:14
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EDNX

I landed at Oberschleissheim (EDNX) last month. Very straight forward, 810m runway, the obscure pattern is just a noise abatement pattern that takes you into the Munich CTR (no issues if you have the required EASA distance from cloud). PPR was granted by the link on their website.
Nice little airfield with what looked to be a very interesting aviation museum on the western side of the airfield (we didn't have time to visit unfortunately).
I wouldn't be so hasty to rule it out?

Moli
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