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Mastering the skill of landing

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Mastering the skill of landing

Old 2nd Jun 2016, 19:15
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Mastering the skill of landing

I am a pretty newbie student pilot. At this moment I have 20 hours flown.. They are all on Cessna 172 , I have flown a few solo flights already , but I haven't got stable landing skills, I bounce or flare too late often , because I am afraid to flare too high, and then I approach ground too fast.. And the question is - How can I know that it is the right moment to flare? And how important is to round out before flare? And one more thing - for a Cessna 172 Vref is around 65 kts ... At which point of the landing I can forget about the airspeed? Is it at the moment when I start slowing down descent? What else can you suggest me for mastering the landing?
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 21:54
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We have all been in the same position. Don't worry. Talk to your instructor.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 22:03
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I was going to go for a long winded answer, but the truth is that B&W is right.

All I shall add is that the more often you fly, the more familiar it will become. Sometimes circuit flying can be a grind, sometimes you feel that the plane is flying you, sometimes the circuit pattern seems awful small and you are back round on another "unstable" approach. These are the times when you may feel like asking to depart the circuit, fly straight and level for a bit, change airspeeds a few times, then make an approach again.
Even experienced pilots need to practice to get familiar with the finer skills. And no two days are ever the same. That's how it is.
We've all been there, and sometimes return!
Oh
Sorry, I went for the long answer.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 22:27
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Suggest you search this forum on "landing".

There's lots of folks before you with the same difficulties and volumes of sage advice.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 01:14
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Rz,

Follow RBF's advice.

One point though - 65 kts is a bit fast. I suspect you have been given a Vref for an aircraft at gross weight plus a "flying-school safety factor". It's been a while since I flew a 172, but I suspect at typical training weights, 55-60 kts would be comfortable. I routinely use 60 kts when flying a 182 solo, with half-tanks. Talk to your instructor about it and look in the POH for the actual stalling speeds and multiply by 1.3. The 172N POH I have, only quotes stall speeds for maximum weight (2300 lb), but the minimum full-flap (aft CofG) stall speed is 36 kts (47 kts Vref) and the worst case flaps-up (forward CofG) is 47 kts (61 kts). These speeds will be lower with lower gross-weights.

And another point - I glance at the ASI during the approach, but I don't look at it again, once I've started the flare.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 01:50
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Agree, 65 knots may be a tad fast for a C-172.
If empty, try 55 or so.
No extra points for going fast, except perhaps in strong crosswinds and/or low-level turbulence.
Good luck..
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 03:18
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As others have said, 65 is too fast if you're solo. You'll balloon or chew up runway.

I come in with about 1400RPM and about 10-15ft, pending wind, SLOWLY start pulling power, raising the nose to accommodate for the sink.
Peripheral vision will let you know when you need to increase the back pressure, you're trying to stay just about the runway for as long as possible.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 06:35
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you're trying to stay just above the runway for as long as possible.
and even when the mainwheels touch, keep pulling back on the yoke, to keep the nosewheel off the ground for as long as possible
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 06:45
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Agree with everyone here. Was in same position, lesson after lesson where I couldn't get it right. Then suddenly ! It's been said that the trick of landing is to try not to land. The trick is obviously to do this as low as possible, not 10 feet up in the air.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 08:34
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If your instructor is teaching you a 65kt approach speed, and pitch to control rate of descent, instead of power, bin him. Get one who knows how to fly a 172 properly.


Wearing my flak jacket and tin hat. Fire away.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 14:28
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You guys are starting to worry me. I have done almost all of my training in C172s and have had my license since September last year. My instructor always told me that approach speed was 65 knots and 60 knots for short field landing. Two other instructors I have since done checkouts with also concurred with 65 knots for normal landing approach. So how come this is too fast all of a sudden?

If it is too fast, where does the old addage "65, stay alive" originate from.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 15:22
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The dirty secret of training in the 150/152 is that full tanks + two males put the a/c over gross - but not by much.

This makes the recommended speeds in the manual closer to what's needed than in a 172 with two up (remember that manual speeds are derived for full gross).

Two up in a 172 is considerably less than full gross, which makes the recommended speed in the manual a bit high.

Root(1900/2200)*65 = 60.4

But don't forget adding speed for wind and gusts.

Also your instructor doesn't mind the extra few kt if your airspeed control is woobly
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 15:37
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Originally Posted by nkt2000
You guys are starting to worry me. I have done almost all of my training in C172s and have had my license since September last year. My instructor always told me that approach speed was 65 knots and 60 knots for short field landing. Two other instructors I have since done checkouts with also concurred with 65 knots for normal landing approach. So how come this is too fast all of a sudden?

If it is too fast, where does the old addage "65, stay alive" originate from.
The POH (172P) gives a range of speeds for final approach:- 60 to 70 KIAS with 30 degrees of flap. 65 is simply the middle of this range. These speeds are at max weight of 2400lbs, but the POH does say "may be used at any lesser weight".

It is possible to calculate lower approach speeds for lower weights. The approach speed is usually around 1.3 X the stalling speed in the landing configuration. This stalling speed will itself vary with weight, using the formula : Vs new = Vs old x the square root of (new weight/old weight). Hence the stalling speed at 2200 lbs will be 0.97 x the 2400 lb stall speed in the POH. You could apply the same calculation to approach speed. You need to take some care though, since the airspeed indicator becomes less accurate at very low speeds due to position error.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 19:03
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Originally Posted by nkt2000

If it is too fast, where does the old addage "65, stay alive" originate from.
The same place as "Too much speed, you do not need" and "If you like to float, get a boat".?


I see lots of three point landings with nosewheel aircraft. In most cases any attempt to hold the nose off would result in a balloon because it's just going too fast.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 19:42
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Originally Posted by TowerDog
Agree, 65 knots may be a tad fast for a C-172.
Depends on model, check the POH, yadda yadda. The ones I usually fly are 65 on final, 60 over the hedge, probably around 55 at flare except by then I'm no longer looking at the ASI. Think about it - if you lift off at 50, you're not going to be able to touch down very much faster than that, are you, as it'll just keep flying.


Suggest, however, you do not do what I was doing a couple of weeks ago - last couple of hundred feet at 45 with the stall warner blaring (hint: they have a lower stall speed if you put floats on them).
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 20:57
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For approach speeds for a tricycle 172, I will fly a speed which will decrease from 75 KIAS to 55 or less KIAS. It depends where I am along the approach. I sure don't want to be sitting a half mile back, a few hundred feet up, at 60 KIAS, if it quits, a neat glide landing is not certain. And, I don't want to be crossing the threshold at 75 KIAS, unless I have a very long landing in mind.

When I train in a 180 series amphibian, the glide approach speed will be 80 KIAS until the landing surface is "made". I imagine I'd fly a 172 amphib similarly. If your instructor would like you to fly a 172 at 60 KIAS half mile back on the approach, ask him/her this: With a planned touchdown point identified (and stated) far down a longish runway, demonstrate a glide landing to the surface from crossing the threshold (obviously high) at that slow speed.

If I need to get a plane into a very short runway, it'll be a 1.1 to 1.2 Vs0 approach carrying a lot of power, but knowing that if the engine quits before I cross the threshold, a crash is very likely.

Don't fixate on one speed. Fly a profile which will keep you most safe further back on the approach, and get you across the threshold at a suitable [slower] speed to touch down shortly after - that is not one speed, it's a planned deceleration, as you descend. If in doubt, the minimum speed you should fly farther back on the approach would be Vy, because from that speed, a good glide entry is possible in the case of engine failure.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 21:32
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Agree, 65 knots may be a tad fast for a C-172.
Depends on model, check the POH, yadda
Yes but the POH for light planes only list approach speeds for max gross.
Sure, approaching a long runway, fly fast and bleed off after crossing the fence.
Also, as mentioned, on long final, carry a little extra in case the motor goes quiet so you
can still make the field, slowly slowing as you get closer. Not quite a stabilized approach as per big airplane requirements, but it will work.
I "learned" flying Cessnas in Alaska operating 100 hrs a month in to dirt strips, beaches and
mountain mining camps. Short strips and low speed was important every time.
Sometimes you "hang it" on the stall warning on short final with lots of power, behind the so-called power curve, then chop power and pull all the way back when crossing the edge of the strip with feet firmly planted on the brakes before touch-down.
(Don't try this at home kids...)
It worked, one could stop a heavily loaded C-207 in 100 meters with gravel and rocks flying into the flaps and tail. Lots of wear and tear but that is what the bosses wanted us to do.
So, long strip, fly fast. Short strip, fly slow.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 22:07
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Originally Posted by Step Turn
When I train in a 180 series amphibian, the glide approach speed will be 80 KIAS until the landing surface is "made". I imagine I'd fly a 172 amphib similarly.
Not the ones I was flying a couple of weeks ago - they struggled slightly to cruise at anything much more than 75!
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 17:06
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The best tip I could give you assuming your in the ball park for the correct speed & stable approach is to think about where your putting your eyes. Eyes on your aiming point until just prior to starting the flare and then look to the end of the runway to judge your sink rate. If you have a less than satisfactory landing have a think about it afterwards and ask yourself where you were looking at touch down. There's a good chance that you haven't moved your focus to the end of the runway.

Last edited by Stall Inducer; 6th Jun 2016 at 03:44.
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Old 5th Jun 2016, 22:39
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It's getting late, perhaps somebody has already suggested this...and I couldn't make my eyes focus on the long long post above.

BUT do practice stalls at altitude. Get so familiar with the handling of the Cessna that you could judge your speed from the way it feels. Suppose you didn't have an ASI working, you could still land safely.

However, if you have say a 737 following, you may wish to expedite, and forget about using the flaps!
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