Which service/requests using Scottish/London information

[para_trooper]

Hello all,

If I'm flying out of range of any LARS service or any other service be that, so therefore I'd listen to lets say London Information on 124.600. If there was no need for current information from them but I just wanted them to be aware of my location and route etc, so if something were to happen I could pass a mayday on to someone, but what "service"/request would I ask for? Would I just pass that up in the normal format; type, route, posistion, altitude and request? Would it make any difference if I'd have filed a 'flight plan' or not?

Thanks.

[BEagle]

London Information is a Flight Information Service provider, but the UK confuses the issue with different levels of FIS; some FIS (e.g. Traffic) is often provided by ATC outside CAS...

With little other option, it's probably best to opt for a 'Basic' level of FIS. After initial contact, assuming you can get a word in edgewise when the Le Touquet lunch club are filling the airwaves with trivia , pass the details as you've proposed after you've been asked to go ahead - don't launch into a life history on initial contact. They will probably offer you the local RPS (ignore it and use a nearby aerodrome QNH!) and ask you to report at your next position. When you do so, just send it as a normal position report when asked to go ahead "G-ZZZZ, Smalltown at 13:15, 3000 ft on 1003, estimating Bigplace at 13:40" or somesuch.

(Stands by for that well-known wireless nerd to say I'm wrong...)

[para_trooper]

Thanks, so just to clarify I'm requesting a 'basic service'? I wasn't too sure if they could actually offer a basic service.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by para_trooper

Thanks, so just to clarify I'm requesting a 'basic service'? I wasn't too sure if they could actually offer a basic service.

Yes. You ask for "basic service" and often (but not always) you hear nothing further from them until you tell them you're leaving the frequency. But, and this was your original question, it does mean they already know who you are if you need to make an emergency call.


Many of us don't bother.

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by para_trooper

If I'm flying out of range of any LARS service or any other service be that, so therefore I'd listen to lets say London Information on 124.600. If there was no need for current information from them but I just wanted them to be aware of my location and route etc, so if something were to happen I could pass a mayday on to someone, but what "service"/request would I ask for?

Basic Service. It is the ONLY service which London Information may provide.

The best place to make a Mayday is to Distress and Diversion ('D & D') on 121.5. D & D is equipped with radar and auto-triangulation, and its primary task is to respond to such calls.

Would I just pass that up in the normal format; type, route, posistion, altitude and request?

Yes, but ONLY after being invited to 'Pass your Message'.

Would it make any difference if I'd have filed a 'flight plan' or not?

No. FPL details are not extracted for use by London Information.

[fisbangwollop]

Here is an article I wrote recently for our NATS blog page.......it maybe explains how we can help.
Why GA pilots should talk to ATC - NATS Blog

[piperboy84]

Many of us don't bother.

Not sure i would either for short hops round the lowlands of southern England. The Highlands and Islands, the breadth of some of the Firths, and the remote and unforgiving terrain stretching from the central belt to Wick make getting a service a "must have" type of deal for me.

A basic service from SI has a few bells and whistles on it, an example being I was recently returning from down south above a broken layer at 9k just east of Edinburgh heading home for Forfar, opted to stop in Perth for a pie instead but had to decide if I should attempt an descent through smallish holes where I was or stay on top and see what Perth was like. Knowing Perth doesn't have an ATIS or ASOS and I was out of radio range I had to settle for second choice and ask SI for reports from Dundee or Luechars which may or may not be applicable to Perth . SI responded with
" Talked to Pete on the phone he says its murky but you'll manage" So not only did I get a report, it was tailored to my flying skills"👌

[para_trooper]

Thank you everyone. I can see the real benefit here to having 2 comms, but then also just having 121.5 tuned in with the flip-flop is almost just as good.

Great article Paul, makes for a good read and is good to have an expert in the field detail exactly what you can provide.

[Maoraigh1]

Flying mainly over the Highlands, sightseeing, and sometimes avoiding weather, I sometimes keep a listening watch, to avoid questions which I will be unable to answer, such as intended route, altitude, and time to next point.
I did that on an Inverness - Oban flight, with Mode S, 7000, C, and a Group member emailed me the FR24 version of my track in the Ben More - Ben Ime - Ben Lui area.
As the transponder was being interrogated most of the time, presumably changing to 7700 would produce a response??
Quite often I could hear aircraft on frequency, but not Scottish, due to my altitude.

[riverrock83]

Your transponder may have been being interrogated by airliner TCAS - not necessarily someone on the ground. Better to make sure you actually have a service.
I suspect that if you can't talk to SI, you may also not be able to talk to D&D (I suspect transmitters are often co-located). However your call may be relayed by an airliner, who should also be listening on 121.5.

[fisbangwollop]

D&D coverage below 5000ft in Scotland is not great. At Scottish we have various TX/RX sites throughout Scotland giving us pretty good coverage above 2000ft. That said as VHF is line of sight you cannot expect 100% coverage. I am one of the voices of Scottish Info working 119.875. we do know what area's we are liable to lose aircraft comms with. If this is the case, we always try to advise the aircraft to expect to lose us in such area's.
As Piperboy said earlier, we tend to get to know and understand our customer requirements and provide a service that suits.
As for the comments on FR24, the FR24 picture is often better than the actual radar picture for low level traffic due to the way mode "S" signals are received and re transmitted into the FR24 network. Nothing at all to do with radar coverage I believe.
It is the same with gliders fitted with FLARM, this data is re transmitted into the FR24 system but as FLARM is not a transponder it would not show on secondary radar.
As for just listening out on the Scottish Information frequency.......my pet hate, if your going to do that please just give me a call, it will provide me with a situation awareness so that I can then legally advise other traffic operating in the same area where you are......if you don't tell me I will never know!

[para_trooper]

So on top of the previous question, if I was to ask; "London info, GXXXX, request danger area information" Once asked to pass my message, do I pass up; type, route, location, height and request or just the danger area I'd like info on? Obviously if I wanted to stay on frequency and recieve a basic I'd pass up all the info plus the danger area I'd like info on. Or would you use a different procedure?

[atceng]

'NATS works hard to prevent airspace infringements and the FISOs at Scottish Information have a FID (Flight Information Display) which is basically a radar displaying all transponding aircraft operating within Scottish airspace. It is primarily an aid to help prevent airspace infringements. The FISOs are not allowed to use the device to pass traffic information onto other aircraft or to give direct instructions to avoid airspace infringements. However, it does give the FISO situational awareness of the transponding aircraft talking to them. Should the FISO consider that an aircraft may possibly infringe controlled airspace the FISO will take action by co-ordinating with the controlling authority of the airspace and subsequently transfer the aircraft to that agency in an attempt to avoid an infringement.
Hopefully the next time you fly over Scotland you will consider calling Scottish Information on 119.875mhz. South of the border, our fellow FISO colleagues at London Information can provide the same service on their designated frequencies. We look forward to talking to you!'


May I print this out and pin up in the various flight schools to counter the 'No point in talking to them, and they dont even have radar' philosophy which many instructors are still telling to student pilots.

[Maoraigh1]

As for just listening out on the Scottish Information frequency.......my pet hate,

I don't like to annoy people - especially usefull ones like you. But IF I'd called you "Over Kingussie" heading south, estimating Oban in about 90 minutes, intending flying in the area north of Loch Tay and Arrochar, is there any way I can avoid a long conversation? I didn't know exactly where I might go. It's pleasure flying in Class G,with below 6000' and VFR restrictions.