IMC rating in the Uk
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Early in my IMCR training a wise man pointed out to me that if I stuck to the 600ft MDH on the IMCR (which with the amount of flying I do, I think is wise), then there was no point attempting an approach with less than 3000m visibility, as otherwise when I popped out at 600ft I still wouldn't be able to see the runway...
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Early in my IMCR training a wise man pointed out to me that if I stuck to the 600ft MDH on the IMCR (which with the amount of flying I do, I think is wise), then there was no point attempting an approach with less than 3000m visibility, as otherwise when I popped out at 600ft I still wouldn't be able to see the runway...
Which unwise man made that comment, tmmorris?
At 600 ft MDH, you fly level until you see the visual criteria. With currently 1800m as the minimum visibility for the IR(R), this should occur at around 0.97 nm from the threshold, from which point you can continue a visual approach and landing.
At 600 ft MDH, you fly level until you see the visual criteria. With currently 1800m as the minimum visibility for the IR(R), this should occur at around 0.97 nm from the threshold, from which point you can continue a visual approach and landing.
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Which instrument rating do we talk, national UK-IMC or Part.FCL EIR/CBIR? I was a long time supporter of the UK-IMC until I recently met the first students finishing EIR on the CBIR route. I have to admit, EASA did a pretty good job on it and the UK-IMC may be obsolete now.
And yes, IFR training will make every pilot more aware on how to perform procedures and fly more precisely.
Two thing to keep in mind, first, you need to have frequent access to an IFR equipped aircraft and second, you have to fly frequent IFR to keep your skills current and actual. Do not underestimate these two requirements, as an IR will also be a bigger license to kill yourself.
And yes, IFR training will make every pilot more aware on how to perform procedures and fly more precisely.
Two thing to keep in mind, first, you need to have frequent access to an IFR equipped aircraft and second, you have to fly frequent IFR to keep your skills current and actual. Do not underestimate these two requirements, as an IR will also be a bigger license to kill yourself.
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until I recently met the first students finishing EIR on the CBIR route. I have to admit, EASA did a pretty good job on it and the UK-IMC may be obsolete now.
- 7 Ground Exams
- Class 1 medical
- Validate it every year
That's 6 more ground exams (may I also say that they are very involved in my mind as compared to the IMC MCQ. It requires a certain number of hours of ground school done in an approved training centre which is both time consuming and expensive.
That's a medical that (at least for me, being under 40) I would need to do 5 times more often, and would cost more per examination than my class 2.
The retest is every single year, as opposed to every 2 years (which is probably a good thing), but the renewal fees are excruciatingly expensive.
I have been quoted £800 for renewal on a SEP! To be fair it did include approach fees, landings, fuel surcharges, rental of a complex SEP and CAA fees, but it does mean that you would need to spend a minimum of £1000 per year just to sit the test, and redo your medical. (in addition to actually doing some training to be up to test standards).
So yes, hassle, time and costs would be a barrier to most people I think! Yet - it DOES allow you to fly IFR all over the world which would be nice as opposed to be restricted to UK airspace.
Last edited by alex90; 18th Apr 2016 at 12:52. Reason: 7 to 6
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Although I do agree that the CBIR is a fantastic course, I don't believe that it will make the old IMC obsolete. In order to get a CBIR you need
1. 7 Ground Exams
2. Class 1 medical
3. Validate it every year
1. 7 Ground Exams
2. Class 1 medical
3. Validate it every year
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- 7 Ground Exams
- Class 1 medical
- Validate it every year
- It really does not hurt to learn the exams and after EASA clean-up it is even useful in reality.
- Class 2 medical is ok for non-commercial, you only have to add the Class 1 audiogram.
- I did not hear somebody complaining of costs yet, but most combine that with a flight they do anyways and the fellow pilots are 50+, so annual medical is independent of IR.
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@ Spitfire sl
Do it - you won`t be sorry. It is a whole new world of training and flying.
When we have finally left Europe it will last a long time too! But don`t shout in glee, or they`ll put the prices up to European levels of EASA increases. That's what EASA stands for: E.A.S.A: Increase in the cost of everything.
When we have finally left Europe it will last a long time too! But don`t shout in glee, or they`ll put the prices up to European levels of EASA increases. That's what EASA stands for: E.A.S.A: Increase in the cost of everything.
In the above discussions on IMC ratings there is just one thing that has been concerning me.
Genghis the Engineer suggested...
With a shiny new IMC rating one may have demonstrated the technical ability for instrument flying. That does not equate to a full proficiency. The idea of the IMC rating is that it allows the flexibility to plan trips in something less than perfect VMC. It also provides the ability and confidence to get out of trouble if conditions do deteriorate to full IMC.
However I would strongly recommend against deliberately planning IMC trips, especially not deliberately planning to require a procedural approach at the end of it. If that is what you want then an IR is what you need.
Or was Genghis indulging in a little mischievous sarcasm that I completely failed to pick up on?
Genghis the Engineer suggested...
And, in the UK, you have most of the privileges of a full IR. SO long trips in IMC finishing with an instrument approach are entirely feasible.
However I would strongly recommend against deliberately planning IMC trips, especially not deliberately planning to require a procedural approach at the end of it. If that is what you want then an IR is what you need.
Or was Genghis indulging in a little mischievous sarcasm that I completely failed to pick up on?
The use of the IR(R) is at the pilot's discretion and there is no presumption of intent.
Training and Threat and Error Management principles should encourage newly-qualified IR(R) holders not to attempt to run before they're sufficiently experienced at walking.
Some IR holders seem to be of the opinion that flight under IFR outside CAS (e.g. IMC in Class G) is something really difficult. The fact is that it isn't, provided that the flight has been properly planned.
Isn't that so, bookworm?
Training and Threat and Error Management principles should encourage newly-qualified IR(R) holders not to attempt to run before they're sufficiently experienced at walking.
Some IR holders seem to be of the opinion that flight under IFR outside CAS (e.g. IMC in Class G) is something really difficult. The fact is that it isn't, provided that the flight has been properly planned.
Isn't that so, bookworm?
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In practical terms, experience is critical and currency is king, as I've flown with IMCR (IR/R) holders who flew like pro's, with highly polished approaches, and I've also flown with EASA IR holders who flew like pissed seaside donkeys. Experience and currency were the distinguishing factors, in 9 out of 10 cases.
No sarcasm at-all DHU, but you are quite right about the fact that a newly qualified IRR holder, whilst permitted to flying long IFR trips outside class A, will need some significant further experience, and ideally a bit of mentoring before using it that way.
But I managed to fly Cranfield to Prestwick and back a few months after first getting the qualification, IMC most of the way, and IFR all the way. I was exhausted after, but did so safely and perfectly legally.
Any such trips do want planning as such, and the instrument flying skills need keeping current. Don't do it on the hoof. Many pilots have proved that you don't need a full IR to do so however.
G
But I managed to fly Cranfield to Prestwick and back a few months after first getting the qualification, IMC most of the way, and IFR all the way. I was exhausted after, but did so safely and perfectly legally.
Any such trips do want planning as such, and the instrument flying skills need keeping current. Don't do it on the hoof. Many pilots have proved that you don't need a full IR to do so however.
G
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Last year, I half regularly flew in IMC, planning for instrument approaches at the other end, which at least a few times meant landing with 2000m visibility and OVC005. I was always dead on the runway, with lights meeting me just before MaP/MDH all with my IR(r). I was taught to use and build on what I had learnt and this meant flying regularly in IMC to keep my skills up.
The only time I was ever scared / felt out of my league was when I entered (severe) turbulence, rain and sleet just south of Thorney Island at around FL80 in a climb to FL100. When I popped out on top around FL95 I realised that I had flown straight through a beautiful (lone) CB (which wasn't in the forecast). I took a minute or five to calm down, (and a spot of tea in the thermos) before continuing over to the continent (in search of some sunshine). But then again, I am not sure anyone with an IR would have been better prepared for that experience unless they had gone through one themselves!
The only time I was ever scared / felt out of my league was when I entered (severe) turbulence, rain and sleet just south of Thorney Island at around FL80 in a climb to FL100. When I popped out on top around FL95 I realised that I had flown straight through a beautiful (lone) CB (which wasn't in the forecast). I took a minute or five to calm down, (and a spot of tea in the thermos) before continuing over to the continent (in search of some sunshine). But then again, I am not sure anyone with an IR would have been better prepared for that experience unless they had gone through one themselves!
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I'm still in the throws of my PPL. Part of the syllabus, of course, is instrument appreciation.
A few lessons ago we inadvertently entered IMC. My instructor is current on all ratings required to fly for any airline (type ratings aside) and so we climbed through it to find a gap to descend through. It was a heck of an experience, with him instructing but not flying, and instantly made my mind up about acquiring an IR(R) rating.
This seminar (it's long but so very very worth it) is a must watch for all VFR pilots, as far as I'm concerned:
Surviving inadvertent IMC
A few lessons ago we inadvertently entered IMC. My instructor is current on all ratings required to fly for any airline (type ratings aside) and so we climbed through it to find a gap to descend through. It was a heck of an experience, with him instructing but not flying, and instantly made my mind up about acquiring an IR(R) rating.
This seminar (it's long but so very very worth it) is a must watch for all VFR pilots, as far as I'm concerned:
Surviving inadvertent IMC
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I would strongly recommend anyone inclined to do an IMCR, now IR(R). I hold an IR completed painfully under the old rules. Those who point out that currency is king are also dead right, It is one of the most frustrating things but I learned precisely nothing of use on my IR course that I didn't already know from using IMCR regularly.
The real irony was that I often flew IFR from my base at Kemble to take an IR lesson at Cranfield!
The real irony was that I often flew IFR from my base at Kemble to take an IR lesson at Cranfield!
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I always saw the IMCR (as it was when I did it) as an essential part of the PPL anyway along with the night rating. I did mine almost straight after I'd done the PPL, I think before I even took up my first passengers. So I haven't really any experience of not having an IR(R) but I would certainly say go for it, how can it possibly be detrimental to your flying? With the caveat of course that you need to keep in practice.
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IMC without and approach? Insanity!!
Sorry, just woke up (glad am not flying . . )
Having an IMC rating and forgoing the benefit of ther Approach training for an instrument approach is like making love with a gorgeous lady with no gorgeous lady. (or fella) present. The whole course and indeed the practical training is based on geared around approaches. One of the most redeeming factors - the most life saving point of the entire course is to arrive, on the ground, safely.
Duh!
So cutting out the most important, THE MOST IMPORTANT bit of the course is just plain stupid and was obviously devised by some nurd who has no idea of flying never mind flying in IMC.
We learn the Radio Aids, the frequencies, the different approach methods or, type of approach.
Resulting in the flight culminating in a safe arrival.
Look at a Driving a Car analogy "Well done Mr Bloggs, you`ve passed your driving test - minus of course, stopping and parking but you`ll soon get the hang of it - just ask EASA"
Having an IMC rating and forgoing the benefit of ther Approach training for an instrument approach is like making love with a gorgeous lady with no gorgeous lady. (or fella) present. The whole course and indeed the practical training is based on geared around approaches. One of the most redeeming factors - the most life saving point of the entire course is to arrive, on the ground, safely.
Duh!
So cutting out the most important, THE MOST IMPORTANT bit of the course is just plain stupid and was obviously devised by some nurd who has no idea of flying never mind flying in IMC.
We learn the Radio Aids, the frequencies, the different approach methods or, type of approach.
Resulting in the flight culminating in a safe arrival.
Look at a Driving a Car analogy "Well done Mr Bloggs, you`ve passed your driving test - minus of course, stopping and parking but you`ll soon get the hang of it - just ask EASA"
