How long are your landings?

[Crash one]

One or two instructors during my PPL kept knocking the rudder use out of me, plus insisting that the nose wheel must be on the ground before the "go" part is started, sometimes too late for my comfort. I came from gliders and after PPL I was advised by my tail wheel differences instructor "next time bring your feet with you!" I was, and still am, pi$$ed off with that. Went back to the gliders to find my feet.
So I'm afraid I have some misgivings about the training.
I also had the advice that a tail wheel landing is not over until the pilot is in bed with someone.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Crash One, your post and other on Proon from time to time do make me wonder about the quality of some flight instruction these days.

I did meet this just once at Guernsey a long time ago when being checked out to hire a PA38 while on holiday. I did my usual fully held-off landing and his comment was something like "no need for that in these".

Oh dear.

[foxmoth]

One or two instructors during my PPL kept knocking the rudder use out of me, plus insisting that the nose wheel must be on the ground before the "go" part is started,

The first part is just bad teaching unless you were actually over using them. As far as insisting the nose is down goes I have no problem with that in principle, he maybe wants to see how you control the nosewheel onto the ground. I do a thing similar in the early part of tailwheel conversions - I want to see them control the direction down to a low speed, but I will brief not to "go" until I call it, and if I am not happy with the distance left, we stop and taxi back to the hold.

[TRPGpilot]

Originally Posted by londonblue

SSD, how do you know it wasn't taking off;-)

It was not taking off because it was not strapped to a great massive fuel tank pointing vertical along with 2 solid fuel rocket boosters!

[foxmoth]

It was not taking off because it was not strapped to a great massive fuel tank pointing vertical along with 2 solid fuel rocket boosters!

Must be a Yank, can't understand British humour!
(Or maybe French being in Montserrat)

[Crash one]

Originally Posted by foxmoth

The first part is just bad teaching unless you were actually over using them. As far as insisting the nose is down goes I have no problem with that in principle, he maybe wants to see how you control the nosewheel onto the ground. I do a thing similar in the early part of tailwheel conversions - I want to see them control the direction down to a low speed, but I will brief not to "go" until I call it, and if I am not happy with the distance left, we stop and taxi back to the hold.

"Control the nosewheel onto the ground". If the a/c has enough airspeed that the elevator is capable of keeping the nose up then it is too fast to require nosewheel control, (I think?) eventually gravity will take over etc. (headwind considered of course). I am talking about some pushing to get it down.
There were other aspects of training that were, in my miserable opinion, lacking.
But as a student pilot one is expected to worship the instructor!

[foxmoth]

If the a/c has enough airspeed that the elevator is capable of keeping the nose up then it is too fast to require nosewheel control, (I think?) eventually gravity will take over etc. (headwind considered of course). I am talking about some pushing to get it down.

You did not say that he was trying to get you to push it down, using the elevators to keep it off is exectly what I mean by controlling the nosewheel and there are many that do not do it, as you say, eventually gravity will take over, but there are some very strange techniques I have seen over the years, as an instructor I would like to see that correct technique was used - from what you say this was not the intention, so yes poor (flying) technique from the instructor.

But as a student pilot one is expected to worship the instructor

There are certainly many of my students that never did this, and not something I would want, much better that you are more approachable so the student can question WIHIH

[Crash one]

Originally Posted by foxmoth

You did not say that he was trying to get you to push it down, as you say, eventually gravity will take over, but there are some who just do not hold the nosewheel off and others that will do that then push it down, as an instructor I would like to see that correct technique was used - from what you say this was not the intention, so yes poor technique from the instructor



There are certainly many of my students that never did this, and not something I would want, much better that you are more approachable so the student can question WIHIH

Sorry I didn't make nosewheel thing clear.
Most instructors are fine, I find it embarrassing to criticise any of them, it sounds like sour grapes, know it all, etc.
Due to financial and domestic constraints I have got a total of four exercise 14 in logbooks, 1956 gliders (ATC) 1983 gliders, 1986 C152, 2006 C152. So what would be the reaction of newly qualified instructors one third of my age during the early stages of my final push to the NPPL if I had mentioned those?

[foxmoth]

So what would be the reaction of newly qualified instructors one third of my age during the early stages of my final push to the NPPL if I had mentioned those?

I would say you take it up with the CFI if you do not feel you can take it up with the instructor him(her)self

[MrAverage]

.......you can only have one first solo.......

[Crash one]

Originally Posted by foxmoth

I would say you take it up with the CFI if you do not feel you can take it up with the instructor him(her)self

I didn't feel the need to take it up with anyone.

[9 lives]

.......you can only have one first solo.......

In aeroplanes - yes. I have managed two first solos in my career, the second one was more un nerving than the first.

I was mentoring held off landings to two pilots yesterday, (C172 and C150). During my checkout in the 172 (class one instructors was checking me out), he seemed surprised that I would hold the nosewheel off as long as the plane would allow. He was also unaware that 15 flap would allow lightening the nosewheel loads even while taxiing. Indeed, while I was taxiing out, another instructor radio'd us to tell us that our flap were extended a bit - Yes, I intend that. My instructor was a little surprised that the nosewheel would lift off in a 15 flap takeoff, within the first couple of feet of ground roll, and could be easily held off thereafter until airborne.

When you consider the amount of rudder back there, and it's arm to the main wheels, compared to the rather small amount of nosewheel rubber contacting the ground at a short arm, it is not surprising that the rudder as actually very effective for steering on the ground, as long as some air is passing over it. From my experience, if the horizontal tail will control pitch, so as to lift the nose to tailwheel off, there's lots of rudder to steer any GA plane (some powerful warbird types are different in that regard)..

While mentoring the 150 owner last evening, I managed to make the landing use ou about 4000 feet of the 6000 foot runway, by very slowly reducing the power, as he had to control the aircraft the whole time during the landing - it worked quite well.

Pilots spend much too little time in the flare!

[Fly4Business]

Taxi with flaps was an absolut NoGo on the 172 during my initial training, as this was near coast and one of the usual squalls would lift and blow you off taxiway. So, it all depends on where you are.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Pilots spend much too little time in the flare!

Many pilots do. Not taildragger, pilots, however; their aeroplanes won't allow it!

[foxmoth]

.......you can only have one first solo.......

Three for me - gliders, fixed wing then helicopters. This is not including my Navy fixed wing flying, I had gone solo on gliders and C150 but then did flying grading on Chippy which they counted as ex14 and the same on BFT with the Bulldog.

Many pilots do. Not taildragger, pilots, however; their aeroplanes won't allow it!

Dont you believe it, I can certainly demo this for you (not of course my normal technique)!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I'd be interested in how a tailwheel pilot could land without properly flaring, Fox. For a 3-pointer it's axiomatic or you'll either not spend long enough flaring which will lead to a bounce which has to be 'dealt with' by catching it with power and trying again or going around, or you'll spend too long flaring which means you'll drop it on with a bang when the bottom falls out and it stalls!

[ShyTorque]

I used to tell my students that mainwheels were for landing on, nosewheels were for steering with.

[Level Attitude]

insisting that the nose wheel must be on the ground before the "go" part is started, sometimes too late for my comfort.

A 'Touch and Go' is a way of saving time by Landing and then Taking Off without stopping the aircraft.

It is used to enable many more Take Offs and Landings to be practised in a given time and, I would suggest, that it's main benefit is actually in being able to practice Landings.

To me, an aircraft has not landed until all of its wheels are on the ground.
Getting airborne before this happens is a 'Go Around' where the wheels touched the ground.
All wheels on the ground is certainly the only time I would want to be changing the flap setting from 'Landing Configuration' to 'Take Off Configuration'

Although a 'Touch and Go' may be the plan if, by the time the aircraft has Landed, it is not safe to proceed with the Take Off then (as foxmouth has said) DON'T
(Take Off = Always Optional whereas Landing = Always Mandatory)

If, on the Approach, the aircraft's flight path means that neither a Take Off nor a Full Stop are likely to be safe after the Landing then a Go Around should be initiated.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

To me, an aircraft has not landed until all of its wheels are on the ground.

True, but in a trike the main thing is to land gently on the mains with the nose wheel held off. That's what takes time to learn. Once the aeroplane is in that position continuing to hold off the nose wheel until the elevator runs out of authority is easy, so 'going' on a touch and go before the nosewheel has landed surely has great benefit in fitting as many 'landings' as possible into each hour, rather than the backtrack and take off that might well be required if one waits until the nose wheel has landed.

All wheels on the ground is certainly the only time I would want to be changing the flap setting from 'Landing Configuration' to 'Take Off Configuration'

On a 'wheeler' touch & go in the Chippy one has to remove one's left hand from the closed throttle, transfer it to the stick to continue to hold the tail up, transfer one's right hand from stick to flaps to raise the drag flap, RH back on the stick, LH back on throttle, open up for the 'go' of the touch and go. It takes a lot longer to describe than to do! All this time the little wheel at the back is off the ground.

Nothing wrong, in my book, with reconfiguring the aeroplane as long as it has landed, albeit with the little wheel (which ever end of the aeroplane it's on) still off the ground, though it may be a bit 'one armed paper hangar' to expect a low houred student to do it.

[Level Attitude]

SSD,
Just for discussion/debate purposes:

Quote:
To me, an aircraft has not landed until all of its wheels are on the ground.

True, .....

So, we agree!

Once the aeroplane is in that position continuing to hold off the nose wheel until the elevator runs out of authority is easy,

Holding the nose off may be easy (though some students/pilots do forget), but doing it whilst maintaining the Runway centreline and Runway direction seems to be impossible for most students (and some pilots) and definitely requires practice.

If you accept that a "Take Off" is permissible anytime after the main wheels have touched the ground then you are also accepting that the "Take Off" will start from wherever the touchdown happened to occur.
Most students do not touchdown on the centreline and the vast majority seem to prefer the left hand side of the runway - which way is the aircraft likely to yaw when full power is applied?
Directional control in the flare, hold off, touchdown and subsequent roll out or acceleration seems to be beyond most (especially early) students.

Nothing wrong, in my book, with reconfiguring the aeroplane as long as it has landed, albeit with the little wheel (which ever end of the aeroplane it's on) still off the ground

Extending Flaps causes a Pitch Up, Retracting Flaps causes a Pitch Down. Configuring from Landing to Take Off with the Nose Wheel still off the ground could have interesting consequences.

A Take Off should always require a positive decision to proceed, and that decision should not be made unless both the aircraft and pilot are ready (Acft configured for Take Off, Acft on the Runway Centreline, Runway ahead sufficient)

so 'going' on a touch and go before the nosewheel has landed surely has great benefit in fitting as many 'landings' as possible into each hour

This is practising neither Landings, nor Take Offs. It is practising flying an aeroplane close to the ground with its main wheels touching the ground or, as I posted earlier, a Go Around (where the wheels happened to touch the ground).