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Biggin Hill PPR

Old 24th Jan 2016, 16:49
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Biggin Hill PPR

I recently diverted into Biggin due weather. Departed after approx one hour.
During that time I observed 6 Biz Jet/GA movements including mine.
Friendly and efficient handling, but makes a bit of a mockery of their on-line slot requirement for PPR.
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Old 24th Jan 2016, 20:00
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You don't need PPR for a genuine diversion. How would you know what the weather is going to be like several days before?

Many years ago Pax wanted to go to Pisa. No slots available so had to take them to Florence instead. Florence is only useable in one direction and the wind was not co-operating so diverted to Pisa with no problem. Pax were pleased except that their transport was waiting at Florence.
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 10:29
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I used the PPR for a short 15 minute flight to North Weald and back in my RV6 a couple of weekends ago . It all worked fine and the reply from Biggin was quick --- but it was a fairly quiet day, so I do not see how it will help me with the usual queue to take off. They gave me my requested early turn left down 11 on the climb out from 21, which helps with the noise near Biggin Hill village. Not sure what you would do without a smart phone or ipad ? It does take the spontaneity out of flying, as it is not always possible to say exactly when you are going to fly back. But, if you want to stay a Biggin, it is another rule to abide by. I have to be based there, as the other options are all boggy grass and the tiny wheels on the RV6 are not suitable. Living in south London there are not many realistic options. Having been based there since 1973, things have changed a lot -- in the 70's if you saw an executive jet at Biggin, it was 'Wow', there is an HS125 in-between the other ten, Rallyes, Cessna's, Piper's, Fournier's all going around together on the two parallel runways of grass and concrete !!! also of course there was the best runway of 25/07 ----- sorry going off on complete tangents on a Monday!!!
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 11:54
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. . .also of course there was the best runway of 25/07

. . .actually I think it was 23/05 . . . scene of my last memorable landing in a (guess!!). Prop strobing against the setting sun, couldn't see a thing, just sideways glances as I popped the spoilers ... came down like a leaf on to a silk cushion . . . aeons ago now!
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 12:04
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Yes, you absolutely right, it was 23/05 -- bad memory ! I did my first solo from that runway in a 'cornflake' Rallye. Also had a jammed elevator control in a later flight from that runway due to stones from breaking up surface. Do you remember my Fournier RF4 -G-AWBJ that we kept at Sportair/Biggin, before moving to Tiger Club at Redhill --- the best days of my flying !!
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 20:03
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During that time I observed 6 Biz Jet/GA movements including mine.
You don't need PPR for a genuine diversion. How would you know what the weather is going to be like several days before?
No.

The OP is pointing out that with a grand total of 6 movements in an hour, there perhaps isn't much need for PPR...
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 21:32
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I was told that one of the main reasons for the implementation of this new system was for Biggin to actually know who their customers were. It seems that they wanted to keep a record as to whom, what, where and when. In addition to the growing number of private jet traffic coming in / out of Biggin, and them needing to get controllers to have a better picture of workload / peak times.

I frequently have to wait 15+minutes with the engine running, waiting to take off (behind 3 others) at Alpha 1 for runway 21, whilst I see 3/4 jets and a couple of GA in the circuit to come round. So in that respect I do believe that it makes sense, I would gladly have traded a cup of tea in the clubhouse for those tacho hours wasting fuel.

HOWEVER, for this system to work, and for me as a user to benefit from it, "potentially" saving me a few £s per flight. The hassle that this system brings to all its users, such as requiring a minimum of 30minutes notice, inbound and outbound. Having to log into a system from remote airfields that I may not get any internet (or even sometimes signal) at, or even cost me a bob or two to get any internet (ie Europe), the fact that when I do want to go, there may well not be anyone, but when the system actually processes my request, it could be peak time... does make me wonder if it is just a sly way of telling us all to find another airfield.

Generally - I have never really understood PPR. I understand the requirement of familiarity with the airfield, and reading up / checking charts / check weather & runway in use etc... But I don't understand why specifically in England (where let's be honest plans change VERY frequently due to weather) so many airfields want PPR. I think I cancelled (in flight) at least 4/5 trips to the Isle of Wight in the last 12 months when reaching the coast (when I don't see the IoW from Hayling, I don't go, even if when I left they told me they had bright sunshine). So the PPR was effectively useless for Sandown, wasting their time and my time. Do they seriously ever have enough people coming in that they require to know in advance? (i love the people who work there so please don't take it the wrong way, its a lovely place, love the cafe, it is just an example out of 99% of airfields I have been to in the UK).

France seems to do pretty well without any PPR at most of their airfields... (some big ones too) Although I will often call ahead, many respond a little baffled by my call, and just give me the frequency to call x miles away. Why do we in England need so many complications and regulations to an otherwise easy trip from A to B?
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 21:58
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It seems that they wanted to keep a record as to whom, what, where and when.
Why wouldn't they know that from the usual methods? Based a/c info, G-INFO for the rest.

or even cost me a bob or two to get any internet (ie Europe)
Submitting a flight plan negates the need for a PPR slot.

does make me wonder if it is just a sly way of telling us all to find another airfield.
Yup.
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Old 25th Jan 2016, 22:17
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Originally Posted by alex90
Generally - I have never really understood PPR. I understand the requirement of familiarity with the airfield, and reading up / checking charts / check weather & runway in use etc... But I don't understand why specifically in England (where let's be honest plans change VERY frequently due to weather) so many airfields want PPR. I think I cancelled (in flight) at least 4/5 trips to the Isle of Wight in the last 12 months when reaching the coast (when I don't see the IoW from Hayling, I don't go, even if when I left they told me they had bright sunshine). So the PPR was effectively useless for Sandown, wasting their time and my time. Do they seriously ever have enough people coming in that they require to know in advance? (i love the people who work there so please don't take it the wrong way, its a lovely place, love the cafe, it is just an example out of 99% of airfields I have been to in the UK).
The law says you must have the permission of the owner of the land to use a particular airfield so prior permission (which can take many forms) is required by law at those airfields which either operate on an 'Ordinary' licence or are unlicenced.
Different airfields treat this in different ways, for instance some private strips operate an 'open to all' system by saying in Pooleys and similar guides the airfield is available without PPR, what they're actually doing is giving you permission to land on paper; other airfields grant you PPR by giving joining 'instructions' when you call on the RTF, others insist on a phone call or even e-mail or on-line applications.
Simply filing a flight plan does not constitute a request for PPR; if you don't believe me, try filing a flight plan into Farnborough without PPR!
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 08:12
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Where exactly does the law say that?
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 10:24
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The law says you must have the permission of the owner of the land to use a particular airfield so prior permission (which can take many forms) is required by law at those airfields which either operate on an 'Ordinary' licence or are unlicenced.
So .... why can't the "owner" just publish in the AIP that anyone is welcome to turn up without ringing them first.
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 11:16
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Originally Posted by muffin
Where exactly does the law say that?

CAP168 Licenced Aerodromes 3.1


An Ordinary licence relates


only to use of the aerodrome by the holder of the licence and persons specifically


authorised by him.





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Old 26th Jan 2016, 11:29
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Submitting a flight plan negates the need for a PPR slot.
I will second Chevvron on his reply, PPR is one thing, a flight plan is a completely different thing. Try landing in Schiphol (AMS) without PPR despite having a flight plan. I think they will turn you away quite briskly, or let you land and get very very heavily taxed by the FBO.

Where exactly does the law say that?
With regards to helicopters, I have definitely heard that said before. I am pretty sure it is in law, however, for airfields, I have never come across that. I know for a fact that Bembridge only has PPR on certain days (which is when I believe they also do some gliding [or at least did]). I have heard of places requiring PPR due to a limited number of movements that the airfield is allowed each year. As all other places are trying to kick us GA people out though, our even thinning population would make this rather difficult I would have thought!

So .... why can't the "owner" just publish in the AIP that anyone is welcome to turn up without ringing them first.
Exactly my point. I can't understand why or how it would benefit the airfield to force everyone to call them / email them / fill in an online system / fax them / telegram them first. It seems an unnecessary cost to the airfield to have to have someone there the whole time just to answer the phones (even if they are volunteers, surely the cost of keeping the phone line, internet, heating, tea and coffee, maintenance of the tower...). In New Zealand, most of the airfields I flew into were uncontrolled (most with nobody around - just an honesty box in the corner), no need for PPR, and again everything ran pretty smoothly...
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 11:40
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CAP168 Licenced Aerodromes 3.1
An Ordinary licence relates only to use of the aerodrome by the holder of the licence and persons specifically authorised by him.
This relates to licensed aerodromes, how does that affect unlicensed aerodromes? Also, "specifically authorised by him" could just be an AIP saying "Everyone is welcome, we make good tea and coffee, come visit us!" rather than "PPR Mandatory".

I think perhaps what confuses me most is the tone taken to paying customers, if I were rich enough to buy / develop an airfield, I would want the most number of people to come and visit (not just for profit, but more importantly for enhancing the GA community). I would also try to make it as easy as possible for people to come and enjoy the day out! I could never dream of implementing PPR, as I know that this alone would deplete the number of flyers considering coming in to land! (aside from the extortionate landing fees in some places, in NZ they charged me around £3 per landing, in France normally charged around £5-10 per landing, UK normally around £25 - £35 [some nice places like IoW are around £15] - anyone know why we're so much more expensive?).
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 11:42
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Originally Posted by alex90


Exactly my point. I can't understand why or how it would benefit the airfield to force everyone to call them / email them / fill in an online system / fax them / telegram them first.


See my post above. CAA audits.


This has been done to death before. They make the rules, you comply, they check that you comply.
Unfortunately it is buried in CAP 168 which pilots don't read but airfield operators do, and need to comply.

Last edited by dont overfil; 26th Jan 2016 at 11:49. Reason: Clarify again
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 11:52
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Isn't it just the same law that prevents me from having a picnic in someone's garden without their permission?
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Old 26th Jan 2016, 21:53
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Simply filing a flight plan does not constitute a request for PPR; if you don't believe me, try filing a flight plan into Farnborough without PPR!
My comment was only related to Biggin, like the OP's post, not the world as a whole.

From their website:

The booking system is for every aircraft movement unless there is a filed flight plan.


No-one is suggesting a flight plan typically negates the need for PPR elsewhere. Only at Biggin.
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Old 27th Jan 2016, 09:02
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I started flying in 1970. I lapsed in 2001 and started again last year. I remember very rarely having to call ahead for PPR in the last millenium, I just called up on the radio when approaching the airfield I wanted to land at, that was generally OK, even at an airfield like Southend. Am I missing some significant change that has happened whilst I was Away?? Is it a legal change or just attitude?
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Old 27th Jan 2016, 17:19
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Reading the above makes me very grateful that I now fly in the USA! I don't remember all this hassle forty plus years ago.
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Old 28th Jan 2016, 13:46
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My friend who used to a have share in our Comanche 260B at Biggin in the 90's has emigrated to Houston and now owns a Cirrus. Every time I speak to him he just winds me up about the fact they they pay $4 per gallon, no landing fees, flight following radar for free everywhere, a line boy comes out to fill up your 'airplane', he also pulls it out of the hangar for you, maintenance and insurance are all cheaper and the airport lays on free coffee and doughnuts on Saturday morning in the FBO. Is there a single airfield in Europe that offers this service ? It seems to me that what is missing is an attitude to service for paying customers in this country. Rant over, as pointless as general public over here think flying is all about rich people in Learjets, not the guy in his little Jodel that costs the same as a 2 year old VW Golf.
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