Spinning!
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Spinning!
Hi all.
I started EASA PPL (fixed wing) training at the end of June. I went solo recently and due to bad weather have not been able do any more solo circuit flying. Just when I thought I would be able to go up the other day, my aircraft went technical.
To cut a long story short, I got my instructor to demonstrate spin recovery so I could go flying. This was in a C152, which I flew and found it fun! I'm training in a PA28 so have not had the opportunity to do this before.
I would like to do more of this...spin recovery (for fun and just in case I need it)...but wonder if it's money well spent?
I'm at 25 hours...does flying the Cessna count towards the 45 hours minimum? I assume it does, in which case it gives me exposure to another a/c type and allows me to do 'aerobatics'.
Or maybe it's better to keep hour building in the Piper?
Advice would be appreciated....I suppose it's all fun...it's flying!
SFA
I started EASA PPL (fixed wing) training at the end of June. I went solo recently and due to bad weather have not been able do any more solo circuit flying. Just when I thought I would be able to go up the other day, my aircraft went technical.
To cut a long story short, I got my instructor to demonstrate spin recovery so I could go flying. This was in a C152, which I flew and found it fun! I'm training in a PA28 so have not had the opportunity to do this before.
I would like to do more of this...spin recovery (for fun and just in case I need it)...but wonder if it's money well spent?
I'm at 25 hours...does flying the Cessna count towards the 45 hours minimum? I assume it does, in which case it gives me exposure to another a/c type and allows me to do 'aerobatics'.
Or maybe it's better to keep hour building in the Piper?
Advice would be appreciated....I suppose it's all fun...it's flying!
SFA
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Hi SFA,
Yes, the hours all count towards the requirements for PPL issue, doesn't matter whether you fly a PA28 or C152.
At your stage, having mastered the basics, flying a different type occasionally should be interesting, a little challenging and good for you. Being able to recognise an approaching spin and prevent or recover from one, is certainly a skill you should have. Not everyone likes fully developed spinning, nor are all training aircraft approved for intentional spins, so some flying schools won't be able to offer it, but if you can and want to, then go ahead and do it.
Having said that, it's not ideal to keep hopping back and forth between types half way through the syllabus, so mainly stick with the 28, certainly for ongoing solo, but take a dual spinning trip in the 152 when circumstances are appropriate. All flying experience is useful to some degree.
Yes, the hours all count towards the requirements for PPL issue, doesn't matter whether you fly a PA28 or C152.
At your stage, having mastered the basics, flying a different type occasionally should be interesting, a little challenging and good for you. Being able to recognise an approaching spin and prevent or recover from one, is certainly a skill you should have. Not everyone likes fully developed spinning, nor are all training aircraft approved for intentional spins, so some flying schools won't be able to offer it, but if you can and want to, then go ahead and do it.
Having said that, it's not ideal to keep hopping back and forth between types half way through the syllabus, so mainly stick with the 28, certainly for ongoing solo, but take a dual spinning trip in the 152 when circumstances are appropriate. All flying experience is useful to some degree.
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Thanks!
Hi guys and thanks for the advice.
My instructor and I have worked through stall training...i.e. recognising the tell tale signs and how to correct the issue if it occurs (she's made me stall and recover the PA28 a few times now). Plus the two scenarios where it's likely to occur: base to final turns and long final/final approach. I have to say that I spend a lot of time looking at the the airspeed dial when at these times of a flight (and looking at the runway)!
There's been one time when the stall warner has gone off on final approach and I did something about it!
My view is that the more training I can do when exposed to these situations (stalling/spin recovery) the better, as my brain and body will be used to the situation and I'll be less likely to be overwhelmed if it does happen when I don't want it to.
The scenarios mentioned sound like good things to try out, so I'll book another lesson for those.
I have to say, based on what I experienced the other day, if an aircraft goes in to a spin at say 1000 feet or less you would be lucky to walk away.
My instructor and I have worked through stall training...i.e. recognising the tell tale signs and how to correct the issue if it occurs (she's made me stall and recover the PA28 a few times now). Plus the two scenarios where it's likely to occur: base to final turns and long final/final approach. I have to say that I spend a lot of time looking at the the airspeed dial when at these times of a flight (and looking at the runway)!
There's been one time when the stall warner has gone off on final approach and I did something about it!
My view is that the more training I can do when exposed to these situations (stalling/spin recovery) the better, as my brain and body will be used to the situation and I'll be less likely to be overwhelmed if it does happen when I don't want it to.
The scenarios mentioned sound like good things to try out, so I'll book another lesson for those.
I have to say, based on what I experienced the other day, if an aircraft goes in to a spin at say 1000 feet or less you would be lucky to walk away.
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I'm at 25 hours...does flying the Cessna count towards the 45 hours minimum? I assume it does, in which case it gives me exposure to another a/c type and allows me to do 'aerobatics'.
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Agree with TangoAphad but try at 4500ft with an instructor in the 152.
1500 rpm 30 of flap and just try and fly level with the speed bleeding back slowly. She will suddenly drop the right wing and start to roll into a spin.
My instructor did this to me without telling me what would happen or what to do. This was the classic base leg to finals turn spin, I lost 1500ft so would have died if at 500ft, next try only lost 300ft.
Taught me a good lesson add 5mph in turns in circuit and keep an eye on air speed and react fast to any stall warner bleat by lowering the nose, not to much, add power.
The 150/2 is not the pussycat that people would have you believe in this configuration. If you want to do a little bit of areos then the cessna 150 Aerobat is a good starter machine can go to 40 of flap but don't side slip at this setting and better for training than 152 or pa28 as climbs better, so not so much time wasted getting to a safe level.
1500 rpm 30 of flap and just try and fly level with the speed bleeding back slowly. She will suddenly drop the right wing and start to roll into a spin.
My instructor did this to me without telling me what would happen or what to do. This was the classic base leg to finals turn spin, I lost 1500ft so would have died if at 500ft, next try only lost 300ft.
Taught me a good lesson add 5mph in turns in circuit and keep an eye on air speed and react fast to any stall warner bleat by lowering the nose, not to much, add power.
The 150/2 is not the pussycat that people would have you believe in this configuration. If you want to do a little bit of areos then the cessna 150 Aerobat is a good starter machine can go to 40 of flap but don't side slip at this setting and better for training than 152 or pa28 as climbs better, so not so much time wasted getting to a safe level.
cessna 150 Aerobat is a good starter machine can go to 40 of flap but don't side slip at this setting
I've sideslipped 172s, 177s and 182s with full-flaps with no problems. The manuals say "avoid" sideslips, not "prohibited".
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The C 150 can be slipped just fine with any flap setting. Some 172s are placarded to avoid, but it is not a prohibition. Do not deliberately spin with flaps extended simply because it is likely that you will exceed the flap limiting speed in the resulting dive, before you can get them retracted.
If you find the 150/152 too docile recovering from a spin, hold it in a few more turns, and then initiate recovery, and you'll have to work a bit more for it. Sure, there are more brutal spinning aircraft than the 150/152/172, however, if you learn well spins and recoveries in one of those types, you are adequately skilled for preventative incipient spin recovery in any type.
On the other hand, if, with good spin training and skills, you allow an incipient spin to progress beyond one turn, before you initiate recovery, you are careless, and about to be a test pilot. All certified single engine aircraft have demonstrated recovery from a one turn spin in no more than one additional turn, and the piloting skills necessary to affect that recovery, are adequately mastered in a 150/152/172 with qualified training and practice.
"Better" spinning aircraft are great if you can get training on one, but the Cessna training is perfectly adequate for PPL level spin recovery skills. The skill being mastered at the PPL level is not that of skillfully nudging the obstinate aircraft out of the nasty multi turn spin, but rather recognition of the entry, and prompt application of effective control in the correct direction. That done, the 150/152/172 will recover, as will every other certified aircraft. Just the certified aircraft which are not spin approved may take you for an exciting dive on the way out, and exceeding a limitation is a greater risk.
If you find the 150/152 too docile recovering from a spin, hold it in a few more turns, and then initiate recovery, and you'll have to work a bit more for it. Sure, there are more brutal spinning aircraft than the 150/152/172, however, if you learn well spins and recoveries in one of those types, you are adequately skilled for preventative incipient spin recovery in any type.
On the other hand, if, with good spin training and skills, you allow an incipient spin to progress beyond one turn, before you initiate recovery, you are careless, and about to be a test pilot. All certified single engine aircraft have demonstrated recovery from a one turn spin in no more than one additional turn, and the piloting skills necessary to affect that recovery, are adequately mastered in a 150/152/172 with qualified training and practice.
"Better" spinning aircraft are great if you can get training on one, but the Cessna training is perfectly adequate for PPL level spin recovery skills. The skill being mastered at the PPL level is not that of skillfully nudging the obstinate aircraft out of the nasty multi turn spin, but rather recognition of the entry, and prompt application of effective control in the correct direction. That done, the 150/152/172 will recover, as will every other certified aircraft. Just the certified aircraft which are not spin approved may take you for an exciting dive on the way out, and exceeding a limitation is a greater risk.
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There was a post here by a PPL (new ) who was scared of practising stall recovery on his own!
Most fear is fear of the unknown and his fear was the aircraft going beyond a stall into a spin on his own!
He had never experienced a spin or spin recovery!
Aircraft do spin at high level not just base to final ? They also spiral dive at altitude and I beg the question on how you determine whether the aircraft is spiral diving or spinning when you are not familiar with both ?
For me a spiral dive is a more potentially dangerous yet that is approved spins are not !
I used to race cars and see a similarity with the race car you had to be comfortable with the car over the limit playing oversteer and under steer and slides at high speed! You were completely comfortable like that!
How could racing work recovering before the car broke and how much confidence would the driver have if he had never experienced what lies beyond ?
Get a good aerobatic instructor and an aerobatic machine! Abuse it and go beyond in every way you can
It's worth its weight in gold ! Forget all this incipient rubbish that comes second ))
This is probably the reason there have been so many loss of control accidents high level where the pilots have failed to recover and broken the aircraft
So a few hours with the right instructor and machine will be the best money you can spend
Pace
Most fear is fear of the unknown and his fear was the aircraft going beyond a stall into a spin on his own!
He had never experienced a spin or spin recovery!
Aircraft do spin at high level not just base to final ? They also spiral dive at altitude and I beg the question on how you determine whether the aircraft is spiral diving or spinning when you are not familiar with both ?
For me a spiral dive is a more potentially dangerous yet that is approved spins are not !
I used to race cars and see a similarity with the race car you had to be comfortable with the car over the limit playing oversteer and under steer and slides at high speed! You were completely comfortable like that!
How could racing work recovering before the car broke and how much confidence would the driver have if he had never experienced what lies beyond ?
Get a good aerobatic instructor and an aerobatic machine! Abuse it and go beyond in every way you can
It's worth its weight in gold ! Forget all this incipient rubbish that comes second ))
This is probably the reason there have been so many loss of control accidents high level where the pilots have failed to recover and broken the aircraft
So a few hours with the right instructor and machine will be the best money you can spend
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st Dec 2015 at 17:41.
Perhaps worth revisiting the whole history of why spin-training was dropped from the syllabus: far more people were being lost in training, than when qualified.
We fly even though it would be safer to keep our feet on the ground. So if you like spinning, go spinning because you enjoy it.
My own feeling is that I've read a number of stories of experienced instructors discovering unrecoverable spin modes in aircraft like the Cessnas. For that reason, I'd personally prefer to do spinning in something aerobatic. But then the spinning characteristics may not resemble those of whatever you usually fly...
We fly even though it would be safer to keep our feet on the ground. So if you like spinning, go spinning because you enjoy it.
My own feeling is that I've read a number of stories of experienced instructors discovering unrecoverable spin modes in aircraft like the Cessnas. For that reason, I'd personally prefer to do spinning in something aerobatic. But then the spinning characteristics may not resemble those of whatever you usually fly...
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2 flights in the PPL recovering from a "Full Stall" and Standard stall recovery into the go around when the stall warner blips in the land/appch config is as much use as a chocolate teapot!
(Plus I did ask to have a spin demonstrated, but didn't find it interesting enough to want to do any more.)
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AB
I am not saying it has to go back into the curriculum in your average spam can with your average instructor! Yes the reason they stopped spinning was the fact that more aircraft were lost in spin training than in accidents but was that the fault of spin training or the aircraft and experience of the instructors used ?
I remember when I learnt to fly spin training was compulsory and I had an inexperienced instructor who was visibly nervous on being told to do spin training with me ((
Yes aircraft will spin differently but will come out if enough height is available and the correct techniques used and those techniques can vary
I still feel that fear of the Unknown is the worst fear and hence its worth its weight in gold to abuse an aircraft every way you can not just spinning in the right aircraft with the right instructor
Pace
I am not saying it has to go back into the curriculum in your average spam can with your average instructor! Yes the reason they stopped spinning was the fact that more aircraft were lost in spin training than in accidents but was that the fault of spin training or the aircraft and experience of the instructors used ?
I remember when I learnt to fly spin training was compulsory and I had an inexperienced instructor who was visibly nervous on being told to do spin training with me ((
Yes aircraft will spin differently but will come out if enough height is available and the correct techniques used and those techniques can vary
I still feel that fear of the Unknown is the worst fear and hence its worth its weight in gold to abuse an aircraft every way you can not just spinning in the right aircraft with the right instructor
Pace
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SuperFlying Animal wrote:
Yes, it is money well spent.
If you enjoyed the spin training, you should ask to do another sortie specifically on stall and spin.
I would like to do more of this...spin recovery (for fun and just in case I need it)...but wonder if it's money well spent?
If you enjoyed the spin training, you should ask to do another sortie specifically on stall and spin.
Agree with TangoAphad but try at 4500ft with an instructor in the 152.
1500 rpm 30 of flap and just try and fly level with the speed bleeding back slowly. She will suddenly drop the right wing and start to roll into a spin.
My instructor did this to me without telling me what would happen or what to do. This was the classic base leg to finals turn spin, I lost 1500ft so would have died if at 500ft, next try only lost 300ft.
.
1500 rpm 30 of flap and just try and fly level with the speed bleeding back slowly. She will suddenly drop the right wing and start to roll into a spin.
My instructor did this to me without telling me what would happen or what to do. This was the classic base leg to finals turn spin, I lost 1500ft so would have died if at 500ft, next try only lost 300ft.
.
Quote
Intentional spins with flaps extended are prohibited, since the high speeds which may occur during recovery are potentially damaging to flap/wing structure.
Unquote
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My own feeling is that I've read a number of stories of experienced instructors discovering unrecoverable spin modes in aircraft like the Cessnas.
Sec. 23.221
Spinning.
[(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin, whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after initiation of the first control action for recovery, .......
(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin; ..........
Spinning.
[(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin, whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after initiation of the first control action for recovery, .......
(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin; ..........
If any pilot managed to create an unrecoverable spin in a spin approved Cessna, they were outside the limitations, or their skill. In a proper training environment, with skilled mentoring, lots of altitude, and proper preparation, training spins are perfectly safe in 150/152/172s.
My own feeling is that I've read a number of stories of experienced instructors discovering unrecoverable spin modes in aircraft like the Cessnas.
The big danger with spins is that they go flat. Keeping the CG well forward will ensure that doesn't happen. Recovering from an intentional flat spin is enjoyable but it is kind of spooky seeing the ASI pegged at zero. As long as a spin doesn't flatten, and the aircraft has met the certification requirements, it had better recover.
But there is a huge difference between a one-turn spin (which is really still incipient) and a fully developed beyond-three turn spin. And there are planes (like the Extra - not that I've flown one) that need specific, careful handling to recover.
India Four Two
The reason Some Cessnas should not be slipped with full flap, usually the 40 deg variants, is that you can get a sudden and unexpected strong pitch down due to the fin blanking the elevator.
The reason Some Cessnas should not be slipped with full flap, usually the 40 deg variants, is that you can get a sudden and unexpected strong pitch down due to the fin blanking the elevator.
I suppose I should have said 'nearly unrecoverable' or 'unrecoverable by standard techniques'.
An example would be Mad Jock's story e.g
Standard Spin Recovery [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Or Genghis the Engineer's assertion that many aircraft have been found to have unrecoverable modes: (4)
FLYER Forums ? View topic - Spinning myths - suggestions please?
I don't have the aerodynamic acumen to understand why, and I can't currently find the reference, but I've read a suggestion that aircraft that are designed to be benign in the stall are more likely to have uncommon spin modes that are difficult to recover from.
Then of course there are the 'gotchas' such as having the wrong balance of fuel in the wings e.g. the accident that led to the loss of the ETPS Hunter.
An example would be Mad Jock's story e.g
Standard Spin Recovery [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Or Genghis the Engineer's assertion that many aircraft have been found to have unrecoverable modes: (4)
FLYER Forums ? View topic - Spinning myths - suggestions please?
I don't have the aerodynamic acumen to understand why, and I can't currently find the reference, but I've read a suggestion that aircraft that are designed to be benign in the stall are more likely to have uncommon spin modes that are difficult to recover from.
Then of course there are the 'gotchas' such as having the wrong balance of fuel in the wings e.g. the accident that led to the loss of the ETPS Hunter.
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I think we are loosing the point here. I go back to a new PPL who posted that he was scared stiff of practising stalls on his own.
It came out in the conversations that his real fear was that he could get into a situation beyond recovery at incipient and get into something he had no experience of and as such no knowledge of how to handle it.
there were a few loss of control accidents in advanced singles at high level where pilots failed to recover and where the situation was recoverable if pilots had full training and were instinctive about the out of the box situation they were in and how to rectify it.
sadly they didn't have that knowledge and hence ability and the crashes were fatal. One in a Cirrus was recovered at high speed by the BRS which was way over its operating limits.
It always puzzles me on how you get pilots to quickly and instinctively identify and rectify a spiral dive and spin if they have never experienced both?
Pilots are only used to straight and level and not to see the sky and ground changing position and the disorientation and utter confusion that can cause if a pilot is not used to operating in situations like that
A spin is a relatively stable condition a spiral dive is not.
In fact in earlier days of aviation the spin was considered so stable that it was used to remain in one spot for a controlled descent through cloud with aircraft with poor instrumentation and navigation ability.
With precaution a pilot should be trained to handle all out of the box situations to a level where they are comfortable in dealing with what that PPL poster considered the unknown.
A lot of the training nowadays involves recovery at incipient a very important accident avoidance technique but sadly accidents happen which means that recovery at incipient has not happened for whatever reason and then your only other chance is to recover beyond incipient or die
addendum
I personally feel the authorities removed spinning from the training schedule based on statistics and not by looking at why those spinning accidents happened and removing those rogue aircraft and instructors from the equation
Pace
It came out in the conversations that his real fear was that he could get into a situation beyond recovery at incipient and get into something he had no experience of and as such no knowledge of how to handle it.
there were a few loss of control accidents in advanced singles at high level where pilots failed to recover and where the situation was recoverable if pilots had full training and were instinctive about the out of the box situation they were in and how to rectify it.
sadly they didn't have that knowledge and hence ability and the crashes were fatal. One in a Cirrus was recovered at high speed by the BRS which was way over its operating limits.
It always puzzles me on how you get pilots to quickly and instinctively identify and rectify a spiral dive and spin if they have never experienced both?
Pilots are only used to straight and level and not to see the sky and ground changing position and the disorientation and utter confusion that can cause if a pilot is not used to operating in situations like that
A spin is a relatively stable condition a spiral dive is not.
In fact in earlier days of aviation the spin was considered so stable that it was used to remain in one spot for a controlled descent through cloud with aircraft with poor instrumentation and navigation ability.
With precaution a pilot should be trained to handle all out of the box situations to a level where they are comfortable in dealing with what that PPL poster considered the unknown.
A lot of the training nowadays involves recovery at incipient a very important accident avoidance technique but sadly accidents happen which means that recovery at incipient has not happened for whatever reason and then your only other chance is to recover beyond incipient or die
addendum
I personally feel the authorities removed spinning from the training schedule based on statistics and not by looking at why those spinning accidents happened and removing those rogue aircraft and instructors from the equation
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Dec 2015 at 10:38.