Wheel landings and groundloops
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Wheel landings and groundloops
I am occasionally "challenged" for the fact that most every landing I fly in a taildragger will be a wheel landing, rather than three point - where the aircraft arrangement makes that comfortable. After the wheel landing, I'll lift the tail off a little more, and hold it up as long as control effectiveness allows.
Among that reasons I do this, is my desire for a better view forward, which optimizes keeping it straight, and the fact that with the tail well up, the aircraft C of G is held a little more forward, so closer to the mainwheels. The closer the C of G is to the mainwheels, the lesser the tenancy to groundloop - perhaps not much, but every bit helps....
My experience has been that as long as the elevator is effective in holding the tail up, the rudder will be effective in keeping it straight. Indeed, the rudder will probably be more effective than tailwheel steering, as the tailwheel usually has springs, which will absorb some of the steering input initially.
So, I like wheel landings....
Among that reasons I do this, is my desire for a better view forward, which optimizes keeping it straight, and the fact that with the tail well up, the aircraft C of G is held a little more forward, so closer to the mainwheels. The closer the C of G is to the mainwheels, the lesser the tenancy to groundloop - perhaps not much, but every bit helps....
My experience has been that as long as the elevator is effective in holding the tail up, the rudder will be effective in keeping it straight. Indeed, the rudder will probably be more effective than tailwheel steering, as the tailwheel usually has springs, which will absorb some of the steering input initially.
So, I like wheel landings....
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Each to his own. When I wheel it on it's tail high the whole time, until there's insufficient forward stick effectiveness to hold it up. OK, purists will say 'land' the tailwheel before that point, but I like my method!
3-pointers are stick hard back on touchdown and kept there until I shut down, unless there's a strong tailwind during the taxi from the runway.
3-pointers are stick hard back on touchdown and kept there until I shut down, unless there's a strong tailwind during the taxi from the runway.
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Pah! Wheelies are an indulgence when there's enough runway for them, for those who cannot hold the main and tail wheels 6 inches above the ground, ie in the precise landing attitude, until the aircraft stalls on to all 3 wheels at once on the precise spot aimed at, with a lovely squashy feeling that tells you you've done a good one. Provided you've chopped the power properly, have the stick right back, use aileron to counter a X-wind component, and don't over correct with the rudder to keep straight, there will be no ground loop.
Mind you, my first airline had DC3s, inter alia, and I don't remember seeing many 3-point landings by their pilots, probably for very good reasons. And when I asked my Dad if he did them in his Lanc, he simply said "Why would I want to do that?".
Mind you, my first airline had DC3s, inter alia, and I don't remember seeing many 3-point landings by their pilots, probably for very good reasons. And when I asked my Dad if he did them in his Lanc, he simply said "Why would I want to do that?".
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I recall watching a tv programme in which a current BBMF Lanc pilot was remarking to a World War Two veteran Lanc pilot that he found it almost impossible to do a satisfactory three point landing in a Lanc, and asking the vet what the secret was to a successful three point landing.
The WW2 pilot replied ;
"No one ever did a three Pointer in a Lanc unless they were an absolute expert,"
And then adding as an afterthought,
"And most of the absolute experts got it wrong anyway...."
The WW2 pilot replied ;
"No one ever did a three Pointer in a Lanc unless they were an absolute expert,"
And then adding as an afterthought,
"And most of the absolute experts got it wrong anyway...."
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My guess is that b****y great propeller in front; very close to the ground in a wheelie. You would want to slow down very, very gently. Or maybe you would have to keep up an airspeed for a wheelie that takes you into the far hedge, what with slowing down carefully as well. Or maybe Spitfire pilots are/were just so good at it they do 3-pointers out of pride in doing something properly.
I dunno, is what it boils down to.
I dunno, is what it boils down to.
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Large tailwheelers always seem to be wheeled on, whereas singles are 3-pointed. Maybe it's due to the less effective roll control at low speed on the bigger ones so they keep the speed up and wheel it on?
I had heard that the one aeroplane one should never try to 3-point is the Rapide, as it reaches stalling angle before it reaches 3-point attitude, and will drop a tapered wing at the stall.
I had heard that the one aeroplane one should never try to 3-point is the Rapide, as it reaches stalling angle before it reaches 3-point attitude, and will drop a tapered wing at the stall.
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When I was trained on the turbine DC-3, a part of the briefing was "we don't three point DC-3's". There was not much discussion as to why, I just followed the instruction provided.
My experience on a number of taildraggers has nearly always been that I executed smoother landings on the mains rather than three point. Yes, they used more runway, but I'm happy to reserve three point technique for the short or rough runways I would very occasionally fly into. I find that the aircraft is simply more controllable rolling out on its mains, while the tail settles on later. Perhaps that's perceived because of the better view forward, and maybe the attitude plays a part in that too...
My experience on a number of taildraggers has nearly always been that I executed smoother landings on the mains rather than three point. Yes, they used more runway, but I'm happy to reserve three point technique for the short or rough runways I would very occasionally fly into. I find that the aircraft is simply more controllable rolling out on its mains, while the tail settles on later. Perhaps that's perceived because of the better view forward, and maybe the attitude plays a part in that too...
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It says in the Army Pilot Training Manual for the C-47 not to three point it; rather, to make transport landings ("wheelers") with the tail erect or in a tail-low attitude. Same with the DC-2 incidentally.
IIRC it says it's hard to judge the flare in such a big aircraft and the landing gear damages easily if you stall in too high.
EDIT: Here we go. Got it slightly wrong. Regarding the C-47:
"You can make a 3-point landing in a C-47 airplane, but this type of landing is not advisable. Reason: Weight of the airplane causes undue strain if you happen to drop in. Normally, make a tail-low landing."
Regarding the DC-2 (this is from the Douglas Operations Manual):
"A normal approach and landing should be made under partial power reducing power as you come over the fence. Landing should be made on main gear, dropping the tail as the rolling speed decreases. By making a wheel landing of this type, better control of the airplane, and a smoother landing will be accomplished."
IIRC it says it's hard to judge the flare in such a big aircraft and the landing gear damages easily if you stall in too high.
EDIT: Here we go. Got it slightly wrong. Regarding the C-47:
"You can make a 3-point landing in a C-47 airplane, but this type of landing is not advisable. Reason: Weight of the airplane causes undue strain if you happen to drop in. Normally, make a tail-low landing."
Regarding the DC-2 (this is from the Douglas Operations Manual):
"A normal approach and landing should be made under partial power reducing power as you come over the fence. Landing should be made on main gear, dropping the tail as the rolling speed decreases. By making a wheel landing of this type, better control of the airplane, and a smoother landing will be accomplished."
Last edited by Capn Bug Smasher; 2nd Oct 2015 at 09:30.
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As long as you can assure the ground is smooth, the landing distance is sufficient and the prop won't hit the ground that's fine. But you are not doing yourself any favours. Also you might as well get a tricycle undercarriage because you are not getting the benefit of flying a tail-dragger.
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Interesting ideas here.
I also prefer wheel landings for many reasons.
As to the DC3 it can be three pointed if you so desire, however it does require good height judgement in the hold off.
The three point landing or close to it is useful when operating on wheel skis, we normally selected half wheel out of the ski bottoms when using this technique if the surface was hard or could be hard snow/ice.
Like every other type of airplane handling skills your experience level will dictate the type of landing you decide on for a given landing.
By the way the B18 can be difficult to three point.
And the Turbo Goose down right frightening to three point.
And the Pitts S2B is difficult to wheel land.
As to groundlooping a tail wheel airplane I have to confess I never got to experience that realm of landing or take off.
I also prefer wheel landings for many reasons.
As to the DC3 it can be three pointed if you so desire, however it does require good height judgement in the hold off.
The three point landing or close to it is useful when operating on wheel skis, we normally selected half wheel out of the ski bottoms when using this technique if the surface was hard or could be hard snow/ice.
Like every other type of airplane handling skills your experience level will dictate the type of landing you decide on for a given landing.
By the way the B18 can be difficult to three point.
And the Turbo Goose down right frightening to three point.
And the Pitts S2B is difficult to wheel land.
As to groundlooping a tail wheel airplane I have to confess I never got to experience that realm of landing or take off.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 2nd Oct 2015 at 22:30.
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As to groundlooping a tail wheel airplane I have to confess I never got to experience that realm of landing or take off.
I'd got lazy feet! I vacated the grass runway to the left at a fair lick, and felt the tail begin to step out determinedly to the right, precursor to a groundloop to the left. Full right rudder to correct didn't do it, so brake was applied (right brake of course, and as I already had full right rudder in I just had to hoink back the brake lever, hard, with my left hand to get full right brake). That did the trick. Just!
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It is amazing sometimes how close we come to letting the things get away from us by being just a tad late in seeing yaw start.
I found flying helicopters to be the best machine for learning how to see and control yaw....and pitch...and ...roll.
Bottom line is it is all about self dicipline and making sure you fly it instead of letting it fly you.
I found flying helicopters to be the best machine for learning how to see and control yaw....and pitch...and ...roll.
Bottom line is it is all about self dicipline and making sure you fly it instead of letting it fly you.
I vacated the grass runway to the left at a fair lick, and felt the tail begin to step out determinedly to the right, precursor to a groundloop to the left.
I've done exactly the same thing on a couple of occasions over the years, when starting my turn to backtrack, at a little faster than normal speed, in the interests of a more efficient glider-towing operation.
After some fancy foot work and a shot of adrenaline, I was thinking "Er, let's not do THAT again!"
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I've had one very slow groundloop, and one nearly so. I flew jumpers for years in a 185. On my first day of flying it, I nearly lost it landing into the setting sun, to later find that it had no tailwheel steering whatever - broken tailwheel. It went where I wanted it to, but that had been luck, not control.
I very slowly groundlooped the Teal once. I had landed in quite a crosswind, and touched the tail wheel down (from a nice wheel landing) while the rudder was fully applied to keep 'er straight. The problem was that doing so unlocked the tailwheel, which then would no longer steer. When the rudder was no longer effective, the tailwheel steering was useless, so she gently went around. No harm done, but lesson learned, center the rudder for a second to lock the steering in for when you slow down!
For my modest tailwheel experience, I have found that looking over a lowered nose during the roll out enables a much greater awareness of yaw, for longer down the roll out. Awareness of yaw has to be good!
I very slowly groundlooped the Teal once. I had landed in quite a crosswind, and touched the tail wheel down (from a nice wheel landing) while the rudder was fully applied to keep 'er straight. The problem was that doing so unlocked the tailwheel, which then would no longer steer. When the rudder was no longer effective, the tailwheel steering was useless, so she gently went around. No harm done, but lesson learned, center the rudder for a second to lock the steering in for when you slow down!
For my modest tailwheel experience, I have found that looking over a lowered nose during the roll out enables a much greater awareness of yaw, for longer down the roll out. Awareness of yaw has to be good!
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Most of the taildraggers I've flown have had a spring connection to the rudder from the tail wheel. The Chippy has a free-castoring tail wheel, yet I haven't noticed it more prone to groundlooping than those others.
In fact, it is (for me) a much more preferable set up as it allows unrestricted turns when taxying. 360 degree circles around either mainwheel are fun! And swapping from rotations around the left wheel to rotations around the right at a precise point are a good excercise in anticipation of rudder input for taxying. And as my first checkout instructor back in 1979 said "if you can taxy this aeroplane competently, you can fly it".
Free castoring tail wheel also makes pushing the aeroplane into and out of the hangar a heck of a lot easier.
In fact, it is (for me) a much more preferable set up as it allows unrestricted turns when taxying. 360 degree circles around either mainwheel are fun! And swapping from rotations around the left wheel to rotations around the right at a precise point are a good excercise in anticipation of rudder input for taxying. And as my first checkout instructor back in 1979 said "if you can taxy this aeroplane competently, you can fly it".
Free castoring tail wheel also makes pushing the aeroplane into and out of the hangar a heck of a lot easier.
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Totally agree with SSD concerning the Chippy castoring tailwheel. It works very well, although it shouldn't.
The Jungmann has a tailwheel which locks to the rudder once a small leaver is released. On one occasion when the rudder had failed to engage correctly, boy did I know about it. Thankfully the issue raised itself during the initial taxying phase of the flight. With a free castoring tailwheel the thing was uncontrollable.
Whilst I will happily wheel on a Chippy, Citabria, Cub etc etc, I have always shied away from wheeling the Jungmann on due to it's Mickey Mouse undercarriage design which works well enough in three point. Tail up I wouldn't be so sure with that clap hands action and soft springing.
The Jungmann has a tailwheel which locks to the rudder once a small leaver is released. On one occasion when the rudder had failed to engage correctly, boy did I know about it. Thankfully the issue raised itself during the initial taxying phase of the flight. With a free castoring tailwheel the thing was uncontrollable.
Whilst I will happily wheel on a Chippy, Citabria, Cub etc etc, I have always shied away from wheeling the Jungmann on due to it's Mickey Mouse undercarriage design which works well enough in three point. Tail up I wouldn't be so sure with that clap hands action and soft springing.
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Lets examine directional control on landing using the two most common methods of landing.
First the wheel landing.
Directional control is more precise when correcting for drift due to higher airspeed at touch down resulting in faster control response.
Directional control during the roll out is more precise because the main wheels are on the runway and you can prevent yaw before tail wheel contact because you still have higher airflow past the rudder than you would have in the three point touch down.
Conversely when three pointing the airplane it can be subject to sideways drift just prior to touch down due to wind strength/ cross wind change at that moment, just when your airflow past the flight controls has passed the really effective stage because you are almost stalled.
The center of gravity is behind the main wheels in a tail wheel airplane or it would not sit on the tailwheel when stopped.
If it is drifting sideways at touch down it will immediately yaw when the wheels contact the surface...therefore the three point landing exposes you to yaw if drift is peresent at wheel contact.
The wheel landing is better due to better control response just prior to and at wheel contact.
So where am I wrong in my thinking?
First the wheel landing.
Directional control is more precise when correcting for drift due to higher airspeed at touch down resulting in faster control response.
Directional control during the roll out is more precise because the main wheels are on the runway and you can prevent yaw before tail wheel contact because you still have higher airflow past the rudder than you would have in the three point touch down.
Conversely when three pointing the airplane it can be subject to sideways drift just prior to touch down due to wind strength/ cross wind change at that moment, just when your airflow past the flight controls has passed the really effective stage because you are almost stalled.
The center of gravity is behind the main wheels in a tail wheel airplane or it would not sit on the tailwheel when stopped.
If it is drifting sideways at touch down it will immediately yaw when the wheels contact the surface...therefore the three point landing exposes you to yaw if drift is peresent at wheel contact.
The wheel landing is better due to better control response just prior to and at wheel contact.
So where am I wrong in my thinking?
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 4th Oct 2015 at 18:03.
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But the tendency to yaw doesn't matter if your feet are alive. And a nice 3-pointer is satisfying. Also, the landing is much slower (actually it's as slow as it could possibly be) so uses less runway than a wheeler. Important consideration for short UK farm strips!