Wheel landings and groundloops
No problem talking about DC3's here!
Like many of us I have enjoyed tailwheel flying the most, hence my interest in this thread.
I'm fortunate to have a little DC3 time, so the input of Chuck and others has some resonance with me.
Given the mild criticism above I thought I'd mention that when I did my training and was initially rated in the DC3 I had a PPL (albeit I later upgraded to a CPL). Although it wasn't my own machine I could and did fly it on the PPL, so I don't see it as inappropriate to discuss its merits here. Besides many PPL's would surely be interested to hear what they're like to fly anyway?
In terms of wheel/three point, I only ever wheeled the DC3 on (please don't ask me about my first try!), there was never any real discussion about doing it any other way. That said one of the vastly more experienced pilots did three-point it one day. Unfortunately I wasn't around at the time to experience it, but I gather he didn't think it was a big deal. I think this was done more as an experiment to see how it would respond, perhaps should there ever be any particular need, rather than preparatory to including it as an approved landing technique...
Other than that, with the other tailwheel machines I've flown, my landings have tended to be a mix of both methods, sometimes embarrassingly coupled with something in between. I did partly groundloop a Cub once (low speed, around 90deg, ab-initio), and another time I was really just along for the ride when (another) Cub decided it was going to vacate the runway. Fortunately it was an appropriate place to vacate and I'm sure it looked quite controlled/intended to any observers, the reality however was somewhat different if I'm honest...
FP.
I'm fortunate to have a little DC3 time, so the input of Chuck and others has some resonance with me.
Given the mild criticism above I thought I'd mention that when I did my training and was initially rated in the DC3 I had a PPL (albeit I later upgraded to a CPL). Although it wasn't my own machine I could and did fly it on the PPL, so I don't see it as inappropriate to discuss its merits here. Besides many PPL's would surely be interested to hear what they're like to fly anyway?
In terms of wheel/three point, I only ever wheeled the DC3 on (please don't ask me about my first try!), there was never any real discussion about doing it any other way. That said one of the vastly more experienced pilots did three-point it one day. Unfortunately I wasn't around at the time to experience it, but I gather he didn't think it was a big deal. I think this was done more as an experiment to see how it would respond, perhaps should there ever be any particular need, rather than preparatory to including it as an approved landing technique...
Other than that, with the other tailwheel machines I've flown, my landings have tended to be a mix of both methods, sometimes embarrassingly coupled with something in between. I did partly groundloop a Cub once (low speed, around 90deg, ab-initio), and another time I was really just along for the ride when (another) Cub decided it was going to vacate the runway. Fortunately it was an appropriate place to vacate and I'm sure it looked quite controlled/intended to any observers, the reality however was somewhat different if I'm honest...
FP.
Last edited by First_Principal; 6th Oct 2015 at 05:06. Reason: add a title.
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The DC3 is a dream to fly and any private pilot could be checked out on it with no more difficulty than any other tail wheel airplane....you just sit higher above the ground in it. 
Somewhere in my picture collection I have a picture of my last DC3 flight in Fifi Kate which was used in the Band of Brothers TV series about WW2.
The TV flying was done at North Weald just north of London...where a lot of movie flying was done.
Somewhere in my picture collection I have a picture of my last DC3 flight in Fifi Kate which was used in the Band of Brothers TV series about WW2.
The TV flying was done at North Weald just north of London...where a lot of movie flying was done.
Chuck Ellsworth: you just sit higher above the ground in it
Definately quite a different view [at ground level] than from your average Cub/Maule/Tiger or whatever, but once you got that right, and absorbed some of the internal mechanics required prior to landing it was no harder, and in fact possibly easier in some cases, to land than anything else.
Amongst other things once all three wheels were on the ground it was perhaps a little less likely to wander off track because it had a locking tailwheel pivot. Also with greater mass and length it took more to divert it from course than smaller machines - although I think it also took somewhat more perceptive effort to keep straight. That is to say I found it less instantly responsive to the pedals on the ground (as you might expect) so you had to plan more and react somewhat in advance - quite a slow pendulum effect really.
FP.
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An added element in the DC-3 is that you do not have any "nose" visible out side the windshield to help with visual reference to align the aircraft to the runway. Having the windshield and its frame at quite an angle doesn't help either. A reference is to fly the instrument panel perpendicular to the runway (or nearly so for a crosswind), which takes a bit of thinking.
The DC-3, with an eleven degree three point attitude, is an example of what I'm speaking of when I remarked that the wheel landing will shift the C of G a bit forward relative to the mainwheels, and slightly reduce a tendency for a groundloop to develop.
The DC-3, with an eleven degree three point attitude, is an example of what I'm speaking of when I remarked that the wheel landing will shift the C of G a bit forward relative to the mainwheels, and slightly reduce a tendency for a groundloop to develop.
I agree with the helicopter comment - you're used to being busy with your feet...
Video of a 3 pointer going wrong here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfy5SRKxO_c
Safe flights, Sam.
Video of a 3 pointer going wrong here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfy5SRKxO_c
Safe flights, Sam.
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An added element in the DC-3 is that you do not have any "nose" visible out side the windshield to help with visual reference to align the aircraft to the runway. Having the windshield and its frame at quite an angle doesn't help either. A reference is to fly the instrument panel perpendicular to the runway (or nearly so for a crosswind), which takes a bit of thinking
Maybe it is my overhang eyebrows from my Neanderthal like skull due to my still evolving?
No, it was exactly what this thread is about. Not being 'all over the plane' on touchdown (approach was a little ropey, but perfectly useable).
The Maule is particularly keen to get the tail in front of the nose!
The Maule is particularly keen to get the tail in front of the nose!
The key to understanding this Maule 'accident' is the way the nose snakes from side to side all the way down the final approach, with opposite aileron being used to correct it.
This pilot has little, if any, understanding of adverse yaw, and the concept of preventing yaw with the rudder.
MJ
Ps. Hmmmmm...... The Maule video seems to have disappeared now.
This pilot has little, if any, understanding of adverse yaw, and the concept of preventing yaw with the rudder.
MJ
Ps. Hmmmmm...... The Maule video seems to have disappeared now.
Last edited by Mach Jump; 9th Oct 2015 at 12:44.
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Having had an instructor during tailwheel training, who insisted that I need to master both wheel landings and 3 pointers, I use both of them regularly and see advantages in each variant in certain situations.
Just one example:
Considering the taildragger at an 3 point landing just before touchdown, the airplane needs to be aligned with the runway centerline with no drift and on speed. In a crosswind situation, this requires the use of rudder. The higher the crosswind component, the higher the rudder input. So max rudder deflection defines the maximum acceptable crosswind component.
A higher speed would increase the rudder authority, but the speed cannot be increased without sacrificing the three point attitude.
When performing a wheel landing, the airplane can be flown at a higher speed, thus increasing rudder authority, which increases the crosswind capability.
My instructor was right! It's good to have both variants in your bag of techniques! - Just my 2 cents ..
Blue skies and happy landings,
Micha
Just one example:
Considering the taildragger at an 3 point landing just before touchdown, the airplane needs to be aligned with the runway centerline with no drift and on speed. In a crosswind situation, this requires the use of rudder. The higher the crosswind component, the higher the rudder input. So max rudder deflection defines the maximum acceptable crosswind component.
A higher speed would increase the rudder authority, but the speed cannot be increased without sacrificing the three point attitude.
When performing a wheel landing, the airplane can be flown at a higher speed, thus increasing rudder authority, which increases the crosswind capability.
My instructor was right! It's good to have both variants in your bag of techniques! - Just my 2 cents ..
Blue skies and happy landings,
Micha
