Ageing GA Fleet
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Step Turn - the regulation system in the UK is a bit different to most other areas in the world. In the UK permit aircraft are tested and cleared as safe by an appropriately competent organization (LAA BMAA etc). The UK CAA accepted a report comparing 20 years of accidents in the UK, permit v CofA. The Permit came out marginally on top on safety so we can say that under UK rules permit are just as safe as C of A, it would be misleading to take this as true for the US etc.
The UK CAA are now in advanced talks on clearing some permit aircraft for IFR use and on extending the use of permit aircraft in the training environment.
There has been a big increase in permit aircraft in the UK, many new factory built micros etc, the numbers mentioned above did not include permit aircraft and my point was that this was extremely misleading and paints a much blacker picture than reality.
Rod1
The UK CAA are now in advanced talks on clearing some permit aircraft for IFR use and on extending the use of permit aircraft in the training environment.
There has been a big increase in permit aircraft in the UK, many new factory built micros etc, the numbers mentioned above did not include permit aircraft and my point was that this was extremely misleading and paints a much blacker picture than reality.
Rod1
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A substantial part of the certification costs for light aircraft is due to their being in the same FAA Part 23 category as 19 seat commuter airliners and business jets.
This has been partly resolved by the LSA and Microlight categories but these are too restrictive and what we need is a separate category for single engine types up to a sensible weight limit of maybe 1500 Kg.
The other half of the problem is small production volumes, a manufacturer needs to sell a lot of aircraft to cover the initial design and certification costs, the problem here is the decline in the number of private pilots. Getting more people back into flying is a difficult question and costs are a big factor.
Fewer manufacturers each getting a larger share of the market could also make a big difference to the cost of new aircraft.
This has been partly resolved by the LSA and Microlight categories but these are too restrictive and what we need is a separate category for single engine types up to a sensible weight limit of maybe 1500 Kg.
The other half of the problem is small production volumes, a manufacturer needs to sell a lot of aircraft to cover the initial design and certification costs, the problem here is the decline in the number of private pilots. Getting more people back into flying is a difficult question and costs are a big factor.
Fewer manufacturers each getting a larger share of the market could also make a big difference to the cost of new aircraft.
Last edited by The Ancient Geek; 18th Sep 2015 at 11:27.
Ancient Greek,
Most of your post is correct but your first sentence is a bit sweeping. Yes, CS-23 / FAR 23 does contain rules for a very broad range of aeroplanes but as I know from recent experience (I've spent the last two years on the GameBird team), if you build an an aeroplane with fixed gear, conventional instruments, manual controls, unpowered brakes, etc. most of it can be marked not applicable. The minute you start adding primary flight displays, powered brakes, electronic engine control, etc. you get into the difficult certification territory. A new aeroplane can be done for single figures of millions of US dollars if one is sensible about it but because of the sales volumes it takes years to get it back and modern capitalists don't like that.
Most of your post is correct but your first sentence is a bit sweeping. Yes, CS-23 / FAR 23 does contain rules for a very broad range of aeroplanes but as I know from recent experience (I've spent the last two years on the GameBird team), if you build an an aeroplane with fixed gear, conventional instruments, manual controls, unpowered brakes, etc. most of it can be marked not applicable. The minute you start adding primary flight displays, powered brakes, electronic engine control, etc. you get into the difficult certification territory. A new aeroplane can be done for single figures of millions of US dollars if one is sensible about it but because of the sales volumes it takes years to get it back and modern capitalists don't like that.
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Capn Bug Smasher; Re the definition of age in the charts in my OP, I don't know for sure, but I agree with your suspicion that it is the age of the aircraft from date of manufacture. It couldn't be anything else really.
The workshop also covered developments in "alleviations" of regulations governing the smaller GA aircraft, which are of interest to anyone who owns and/or maintains such a thing. EG; "Part M Light".
I was stalking a different tiger and didn't take much notice of that, but the presentations (universally of dire quality) are in the public domain and can all be found here.
Good Luck! They are rivetting reads. One of them is the one with the charts I reproduced.
The workshop also covered developments in "alleviations" of regulations governing the smaller GA aircraft, which are of interest to anyone who owns and/or maintains such a thing. EG; "Part M Light".
I was stalking a different tiger and didn't take much notice of that, but the presentations (universally of dire quality) are in the public domain and can all be found here.
Good Luck! They are rivetting reads. One of them is the one with the charts I reproduced.
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Not just the cost of the aircraft, but the cost of flying training appears to have risen at a greater rate than inflation it seems over the same period.
I'd be interested to learn what others think, but from memory of hourly training rates in the 70s the cost of flying training seems to have risen at approximately twice the applicable rate of inflation (based on memory of flying rates and applying that to an internet historic inflation calculator)?
I'd be interested to learn what others think, but from memory of hourly training rates in the 70s the cost of flying training seems to have risen at approximately twice the applicable rate of inflation (based on memory of flying rates and applying that to an internet historic inflation calculator)?
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My memory is failing fast.....I am certain that in 1963/4 we paid £3.50 per month (fixed) to the Club, and about the same per hour for the use of an Auster Autocrat or a little 2-seat Jodel, and a little bit more for a 4-seat Piper Caribbean. Those payments covered all costs including fuel but excluding landing fees etc away from base. Dual instruction did not cost any more; all instructors were volunteers, many ex-RAF, who did it for enjoyment. It was a Club, not a School, and all the better for it.
My net Army pay at the time was about £1,200 a year, and they gave me accommodation and 3 good meals a day. I see that I averaged about 7 hours a month, so I was spending about 1/3rd of my salary on flying. (And at least 1/2 of it in pubs and on a series of old bangers).
Nowadays, I have heard that a Lieutenant gets about £35,000 a year, but has to pay for food and accommodation; let's guess that costs £5K/year. So if he/she did what I did, same flying time, for 1/3rd of his/her remaining salary after food/accommodation costs, he/she would spend £10,000 on 84 hours, ie £119 per hour. I suspect that this is roughly what it does cost for a club trainer or runabout flown as P1, so club flying costs seem to have kept pace with Army pay rises at least, and probably the CoL Index as well.
(Note: Old bangers were cars, not girlfriends....the girls had to buy their own beer, I was skint.)
Note 2: Yes, yes, I know it was £3 10s 0d. But for the sake of the less abled I thought I would call it £3.50. And I can't actually remember how to write it in £sd. Did I get it right?
My net Army pay at the time was about £1,200 a year, and they gave me accommodation and 3 good meals a day. I see that I averaged about 7 hours a month, so I was spending about 1/3rd of my salary on flying. (And at least 1/2 of it in pubs and on a series of old bangers).
Nowadays, I have heard that a Lieutenant gets about £35,000 a year, but has to pay for food and accommodation; let's guess that costs £5K/year. So if he/she did what I did, same flying time, for 1/3rd of his/her remaining salary after food/accommodation costs, he/she would spend £10,000 on 84 hours, ie £119 per hour. I suspect that this is roughly what it does cost for a club trainer or runabout flown as P1, so club flying costs seem to have kept pace with Army pay rises at least, and probably the CoL Index as well.
(Note: Old bangers were cars, not girlfriends....the girls had to buy their own beer, I was skint.)
Note 2: Yes, yes, I know it was £3 10s 0d. But for the sake of the less abled I thought I would call it £3.50. And I can't actually remember how to write it in £sd. Did I get it right?
Last edited by Capot; 21st Sep 2015 at 09:26.
My 1971 aircraft has fewer hours on it than many 6 month old airliners, and despite doing 500 hours in its first summer, my 1946 aircraft has less than 2000 hrs today. There are a lot of good planes out there, and I think now is a great time to be buying and flying them.
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I'm sure the US product liability / ambulance chasing culture / low volume / regulation all have had their impact on the cost and vitality of the industry.
From my direct experience of the last 20 years flying, I'd say the two main factors in cost have been:
1) Fuel
2) Cost of housing driving up salaries driving up the cost of everything.
From my direct experience of the last 20 years flying, I'd say the two main factors in cost have been:
1) Fuel
2) Cost of housing driving up salaries driving up the cost of everything.
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Not just the cost of the aircraft, but the cost of flying training appears to have risen at a greater rate than inflation it seems over the same period.
I'd be interested to learn what others think, but from memory of hourly training rates in the 70s the cost of flying training seems to have risen at approximately twice the applicable rate of inflation (based on memory of flying rates and applying that to an internet historic inflation calculator)?
Not just the cost of the aircraft, but the cost of flying training appears to have risen at a greater rate than inflation it seems over the same period.
I'd be interested to learn what others think, but from memory of hourly training rates in the 70s the cost of flying training seems to have risen at approximately twice the applicable rate of inflation (based on memory of flying rates and applying that to an internet historic inflation calculator)?
