Restricted Instrument Rating Questions

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by foxmoth

Whilst I do not think ADF is that common as an approach these days I am surprised about how hard people seem to find it, learn the right techniques and it is no harder than a VOR!

Well a bit harder than a VOR, as there's more mental arithmetic involved mostly.

But I'd not wish to be without one yet, there's quite enough airports still routinely using NDB approaches, including my home base at EGTC.

G

[foxmoth]

No more mental arithmetic than a VOR if you do it right - mentally superimpose the needle over the DI, then use the HEAD of the needle as a fly left/right indicator if it is left or right of your required track, works both inbound and outbound.

[AD Jackson]

Using the NDB to get to the ILS is one good reason to use one. There does seem to be a fear factor with NDBs even though its just a dumb needle pointing at the beacon some folks feel uncomfortable with using one and the fixed card just makes this worse.

The biggest problem with them is the ability for it to point in the wrong direction, like at the nearest Cb which will totally mess up your approach. Additionally, its quite often the case that towards the end of the outbound part of the procedure it will loose the signal and point anywhere but at the beacon which happens with CIT.

The question is should you be flying in IMC if you cant cope with an NDB? Radar approaches are indeed very easy but a 2mile SRA isn't much good with a very low ceiling.

[londonblue]

MrAverage.

I believe the engine is fine in that respsect. However, I'm surprised to hear you say that since someone I know did their complete PPL on a plane they had a share in.

Yes, he bought a share of the plane before he started training. However, one of the other share owners was the FTO itself, so that might be why?

[londonblue]

The really frustrating thing for me at the moment is I can't remember what we have in the plane! I might have to pop down and have a look tomorrow!

But from this list:

Transponder
ADF
DME
VOR (ideally x2)
ILS

I know we have a DME, Transponder, and one VOR/ILS. I'm pretty sure we don't have an ADF, but not 100% sure.

Assuming that is accurate, is that good enough? And when I say good enough, I really mean to use in anger, not just to pass a test.

[alexbrett]

Not having an ADF would be a problem if you're expecting to regularly use somewhere where all/most approaches rely on one. For example I fly out of Cambridge, and *all* approaches there require use of ADF (even the SRA and GPS approaches as part of the missed approach procedure)...

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I know we have a DME, Transponder, and one VOR/ILS.

So if your one NAV radio fails you're left looking for somewhere that can give you a radar talkdown? - which might be tricky if you've got just one NAV/COM and it's the whole box that's failed.

[porterhouse]

. For example I fly out of Cambridge, and *all* approaches there require use of ADF (even the SRA and GPS approaches as part of the missed approach procedure)...

I don't know about UK but in the US we are allowed to substitute GPS for ADF for determining position fixes so even if approach plate says 'ADF required' you don't need one provided your GPS receiver is approach certified. You only need one if you are actually flying an NDB approach and then you must use ADF for flying the final approach course. With this in mind and because there are so few NDB approaches left, modern GA aircraft don't even bother to have one installed.

[thing]

I don't know about UK but in the US we are allowed to substitute GPS for ADF for determining position fixes so even if approach plate says 'ADF required' you don't need one provided your GPS receiver is approach certified.

Yeah but you're in a forward thinking GA friendly country. We may have the same privileges in a couple of centuries or so.

[howzitt]

Instrument rating restricted accelerated course UK

Hi All,
What kind of time scale should I set aside to complete the course,any recommendations of providers that have an accelerated course available,taking into account that I may require some extra hours to complete the course,thanks,
Al.

[S-Works]

I generally do it in a week for most people. It can be done quicker in your own aircraft dedicated 1-1 but most people struggle with more than about three hours in a day.

[alex90]

I am sure bose-x is probably right.

I think the most important is to get the theory out of the way first - that really helped me limit the number of hours in the plane.

Personally I don't think I could have done more than about an hour and a half to two hours a day. I found the approaches to be quite taxing, and reflection time to be important. I also needed some time to go over plates. Due to work commitments I flew once a week, and had to cancel a couple of weeks due to (very) low clouds, and CB in the vicinity. So I let that span over I believe 11 or 12 weeks and passed with around 16hours of instruction time, 13hours of which were under hood / actual IMC.

Although most people learn better / faster when everything is bunched up (bose-x) I actually found that taking my time and revisiting elements over a longer period made me much more confident.

With regards to your first question, a lot of people say "Oh no - don't use the rating, it is for emergencies only!" (I quote a CFI at a club where I did some training) but I argue my point that if I don't use it - then I'll be completely out of practice when I actually need to use it (which was later backed up by the instructor who taught me the IMC and another who taught me my night rating at a different club).

I do use my rating, I took off just before the solar eclipse with a cloud base of 500ft, and 2500m visibility (along with quite a few others). Came on top of the clouds at around 2000ft, and came back in to land vectored onto the ILS broke through at around 600ft dead-on the centreline of the runway - too easy!

The only frustrating thing is that it is only valid in the UK. I was grounded for 3 days in Brittany due to low cloud. I could see the edges of the sun, and there were reports of being VFR on top at around 1500ft on all 3 days!! That's why I am now working through my ground exams for the full EASA/IR!

Hope you have fun flying in IMC!

[londonblue]

Guys, I appreciate all the comments, and may have to speak with a local instructor to see if he would be happy to use my plane given its limited panel.

One other question I have, and I want to ask it here where i'll get a neutral answer as opposed to the answer an instructor may give.

I'm based at Elstree which doesn't have any instrument approaches or departures, so how would I get back there in lowish cloud? I have been told that you can use a nearby airfield's approach procedures to break cloud, and then fly under the cloud back to Elstree (assuming it's safe of course).

But how does this work in the real world, i.e. what nearby airport would you use, and how would they charge you if you're not actually landing?

The reason I want a neutral answer is that if it isn't going to be of any practical use I don't really see the point of handing over any cash.

[gemma10]

I like many others did an SRA and an ILS all at Southend, and I did have to show competence in flying to and from an NDB. But NDB holds are another thing, and trying to remember the arithmetic of the three different sectors and then trying to remember which way in, which way round.... I`m going dizzy just thinking about it!

[Above The Clouds]

londonblue
I'm based at Elstree which doesn't have any instrument approaches or departures, so how would I get back there in lowish cloud? I have been told that you can use a nearby airfield's approach procedures to break cloud, and then fly under the cloud back to Elstree (assuming it's safe of course).

But how does this work in the real world, i.e. what nearby airport would you use, and how would they charge you if you're not actually landing?

Do an ILS at Luton or a PAR at Northolt and then low level transit.

[thing]

With regards to your first question, a lot of people say "Oh no - don't use the rating, it is for emergencies only!"

I've never understood that. I use mine regularly, how are you supposed to remain competent if you don't use it? Besides that, I'm one of those weirdos that enjoy flying on instruments.

[150 Driver]

Alex90, isn't it a legal requirement to have 600 feet cloudbase to be legal ? At least I thought so in SEP, maybe you were in a twin ?

[Mach Jump]

...isn't it a legal requirement to have 600 feet cloudbase to be legal?

No. The only legal requirement, is that you must have a visibility of at least 1,800m(Soon to be reduced to 1,500m) for take-off and landing.


MJ

[thing]

The only frustrating thing is that it is only valid in the UK. I was grounded for 3 days in Brittany due to low cloud.

It's amazing you know how many times I've crossed the channel back to UK and been met with a solid wall of IMC right on the edge of the UK FIR...

[alex90]

isn't it a legal requirement to have 600 feet cloudbase to be legal ?

I think you may be thinking of a myth which is circulated, and even mentioned in the IMC ground exam. This relates to "out-of-practice IR and IMC holders recommended minima".

Legally speaking, the IMC rating allows you to fly "Let-down and Approach Procedures to published Decision Height or Minimum Descent Height and to undertake missed approach procedures." which means for me at Biggin Hill, I could legally go down to 373ft QFE on the ILS. Whether or not that is a "wise" decision is up to interpretation, (pilot skill, plane you are flying, hours of experience in situation, currency, weather... All play a part). I am sure if you ask, most IMC rated GA pilots most will know their own limitations.

Do an ILS at Luton or a PAR at Northolt and then low level transit.

that is definitely an option! But it really depends on the conditions. Cloud-base at 500ft, I wouldn't attempt that low level transit - I would divert to Southend Airport and take the train back into London.

The reason I want a neutral answer is that if it isn't going to be of any practical use I don't really see the point of handing over any cash.

I disagree here - the training was invaluable to my flying. I have gone flying with bright sunshine at 8am, forecasts were for clouds at 2000ft around midday, when I crossed the Thames around 10.30, I was in Solid IMC at 1800ft and Biggin had a cloud base of 800ft QFE. Even without the ILS, I could have done a bad-weather / low level circuit and land safely. Without the rating, I would have had to turn back into the sunshine, and possibly land at Cambridge where the weather stayed like this for several days. I have also flown several times in IMC whilst navigating despite both departure and destination airports were in bright sunshine. It opens up your options, especially for longer flights in the UK.

Do the training, it taught me how to use all the instruments properly, and how to navigate in poor visibility. (invaluable).

Best.
alex (ps: sorry for the long post)