BGA airspace open letter

[TheOddOne]

If you want a useful aid then consider FLARM!

Not really.

There are people with FLARM, there's other folk with transponders. There's folk flying metal aircraft that show up as a primary on RADAR. I found out Monday that our TMG, even with a great lump of a Volkwagen (sorry, Limbach) engine still doesn't show on primary 10 miles from the radar head.(no FLARM or transponder, just a radio). Radio isn't actually a waste of time, but is of limited value for traffic avoidance.

The only solution is to make it law that every airborne vehicle above 400' agl carry ADS-B (when they get it working and light enough). Until then, lookout!


TOO

[thing]

thing, me old buddy, can you possibly tell us more about your gliding experience? you say you have gained the Silver Certificate, that's 5 hours endurance, climb of ? meters, and 50 kilometers x-country. But have you ever flown in competition, with a flock of other gliders sent on the same task?

Yes I have flown in comps, not at national level (don't know if the two seaters at Pocklington are national?) but local comps. I've been in the same tiny bit of thermal as ten or so other ground dodgers.

Can I make a wider point about something that nags at at the back of my head occassionally. There appears, to me at least, to be amongst some flyers a bias towards whatever it is they fly, be it powered, gliders, microlights, paragliders or whatever. The truth is, if you hit someone while flying, it doesn't matter whether you are in the right or in the wrong. What matters is that you are most probably permanently dead. We all need to recognise the strengths and weaknesses of each others aircraft and the strengths and weaknesses of the pilots thereof and stop trying to score points.

[Jim59]

Can I make a wider point about something that nags at the back of my head occasionally. There appears, to me at least, to be amongst some flyers a bias towards whatever it is they fly, be it powered, gliders, microlights, paragliders or whatever. The truth is, if you hit someone while flying, it doesn't matter whether you are in the right or in the wrong. What matters is that you are most probably permanently dead. We all need to recognise the strengths and weaknesses of each others aircraft and the strengths and weaknesses of the pilots thereof and stop trying to score points.

Whilst I agree 100% with the sentiment, there seems to be a better than 50% survival rate amongst glider pilots following collisions - mainly because they usually wear parachutes. The fact that most incidents are glider on glider with lower energy than many powered aircraft probably contributes to the high percentage of successful bail outs.

[thing]

Can't argue with that Jim, but if you whack a glider with a spam can then the chances are that all occupants will be deaded. I spent many years in the RAF and even with Mr Martin and Mr Bakers finest seats a remarkable number of young men failed to reach their dotage through mid airs. Just as I arrived at Coningsby in '74 on F4s the Sation Commander Gp Cpt Bluck clobbered a Pawnee at low level and finished up as pink mist. His Nav was to be married the week after.

[Simon T]

Mary, I didn't say I use a radio and a transponder to the exclusion of all else. Simply that I carry and use them and that I think it's reasonable to expect others to do the same for the sake of everyone

to those who say it's arrogant, sorry if you feel that way but why is it nessasarry for some types of flyers pass exams, to carry and use radios and not others,who easily could?

Is it the use of technology you guys are objecting to or the thought that someone else might know where you are?

Simon

[Prop swinger]

Firstly, you don't need to pass an RT exam to fly, it is perfectly legal & possible to get a PPL(A) without using a radio.

Secondly, you are arrogant because your attitude is "I'm-so-perfect-I'm-so-wonderfull-everyone should-be-just-like-meeee-because-I'm-so-great".

The notion of a radio as a collision avoidance system is laughable, transponders are only marginally more useful, particularly for the majority of pilots who can't get a traffic service in Class G. I can point to plenty of instances of transponder equipped aircraft colliding.

Glider pilots aren't opposed to technology per se, just overpriced, useless technology. Transponders are yesterday's tech, favoured by the type of pilot for whom the primary purpose of flying is to play pretend-to-be-an-airline-pilot. Glider pilots prefer aircraft to aircraft awareness and collision avoidance systems. This is the future of collision avoidance but, of course, bypasses the radar controller and thus deprives you of the chance to play the vector Victor, clearence Clarence, roger Roger game you so enjoy.

[PaulisHome]

Is it the use of technology you guys are objecting to or the thought that someone else might know where you are?

Neither. Probably 70% of cross country gliders carry Flarm, and almost all of those are trackable on OGN (which has a feed to FR24, which is why you can see them there). So neither technology or being seen are an issue.

The issue is effectiveness, and a lack of evidence that radio and transponder are particularly useful in preventing mid airs. Sure, they have their uses - I carry and use both in my glider, and this thread is built on a BGA letter encouraging glider pilots to call certain ATC units on the radio, and I support that.

But.

A radio gives slightly improved traffic awareness, assuming everyone is on the same frequency. They aren't in class G, and anyway the information is generally too imprecise.

Whilst my having a transponder helps ATC keep the heavy and fast stuff away from me, it does very little to help me avoid the average GA pilot, unless at least one of us is in receipt of at least a traffic service. As discussed earlier, a basic service doesn't do it. And traffic service isn't available when it gets busy.

For gliders, the risk is glider-glider collision. This is at least an order of magnitude more likely than hitting anything else. For that, the technology of choice is Flarm (after looking out the window). A major benefit of Flarm is that it actually gives information about traffic to the pilot that's carrying it. Now, there are other technologies that do that (eg TCAS, ADSB), but for cost and regulatory reasons they aren't extensively carried in the GA community. (The equivalent risk to powered GA is other powered GA by the way).

And lastly cost. If you're flying an aircraft that costs, say, £10K, then spending £2K on a transponder that has very limited value to you doesn't seem sensible. Especially if you have to spend more to upgrade the electrical system to support it. And there are lots of gliders, microlights and others in that category. So the cost / benefit is limited - a glider pilot in particular would be much better spending the money on a Flarm (1/3 the price and no regulatory issues), and even then it's hard to make a cost / benefit justification in the UK.

It seems to me that if you want to achieve adoption of a technology, it has to give a benefit to the person paying for it. One day, perhaps the fabled low cost ADSB will be here (and if the developers have any sense it will be Flarm capable as well), and we can get good traffic information on the panel of GA a/c - powered, gliders and all (BTW, that also implies displays that can show that information, in a way that doesn't encourage more head down time - there's always an unintended consequence!). But it seems to be taking a long time.

(BTW, I have roughly the same number of gliding and powered hours, many of the latter IFR, so I'm not coming at this from one side of the argument).

Paul

[Pittsextra]

I think the BGA letter and Paul's reflection of things is spot on.

Re this and similar comments:-

Some (in fact a lot) of glider pilots aren't confident in using the radio; if we can overcome this then surely it's a win win for everyone.

When I fly around I'm sure we might all agree that frankly most GA pilots RT is utter gash. Many struggle with their call sign, let alone the ability to report where they are, at what altitude and the pressure setting they are using.

That suggests to me that they are already at peak capacity so is giving these GA pilots anymore info of further use? Plus we assume we are on frequency and having a basic service telling you "Traffic 2 o'clock, right to left, no height information..." That just reminds you to look out of the window doesn't it? Again assuming we are on frequency..

When we have people getting lost within 10 miles of their home airfield (see another thread) personally I think gliders are the least of our worries!!

[Broadlands]

Well put response by Paulishome.
Give it a few more years and I wonder if we will see Flarm starting to be installed in more GA aircraft.

[airwave45]

I want to make my fortune in business . .

Jings, the old "if only I could find a gap in the market" dream.

Most people under retirement age, carry a phone on them that transmits and receives on every band available in every country on the planet (the phone also has the ability to tell where it is and restricts itself to bands legally allowed based on where it is)

A transponder in my glider (and I have a nice unit manufactured by a nice wee Scottish company) is less use to me per gramme than the sandwiches I carry.
The _only_ thing having a transponder active does is reduce the queries from ATC as to my current alt.
It gives me no traffic information at all.

Flarm, does give me traffic info and as it is built into my primary nav computer, weighs nothing and takes up no space, so is very useful.

ADSB, which I could enable given the hardware I'm carrying, could be even better as I would have Flarm and ADSB for a TCAS system, but, the powers that be state I have to install another, certified GPS system (and given that I carry 5 separate GPS systems now . . . ) I'm just not playing that game.
(LX gps x 2, Oudie gps x 1, InReach gps x 1, Samsung gps x 1)

The current certification / legislation / approval of TCAS is a disaster, it's run by coffin dodgers who still believe a map and a stopwatch is the way to demonstrate that you can navigate your way around the sky.
Those with one foot slightly further from the grave believe that carrying a transponder helps you avoid collisions based on, based on, I have no idea what this is based on as my transponder tells me what code I'm transmitting. and nothing else.(maybe there are transponders out there that tell you what else is flying around you ? but I don't have one)

Drop the hurdles and allow manufacturers to come up with one compact box that does Flarm / TCAS / Transponder function.

Back to the letter from the BGA, I still think encouraging glider pilots to talk to traffic units is a good idea, I applaud them for doing so.

There is a bigger problem we have to deal with.
Those who want to play at being "Nigel" will never look out the window, we need a cheap, reliable (but dear god,not certified) method of avoiding spam can drivers when we are out actually flying.
The "Nigels" need a way of seeing us While they are Rodgering Rodger and Wilcoing Charlie, but don't make it too complicated for them . .

Drop the certification requirement and the units in question will be light, cheap and reliable (I know this as your phone is not certified and it is light, cheap and reliable)

[vee-tail-1]

Interesting thread. Seems to me there is a desperate need for a technical fix to deal with the basic incompatibility of gliders and powered aircraft.

For some here flying is a hobby, and for others a way of life. Most of the glider pilots I have met are passionate about their sport. They accept the challenges and dangers as part of a highly demanding inherently risky but hugely satisfying activity. Glider pilots wear parachutes and are constantly ready to use them for very good reasons. Gliders are constantly turning, climbing, descending, and can be encountered almost anywhere on a good gliding day. Glider pilots inhabit a different reality to those of other aviators and that reality may not include use of a radio for situation awareness.

Flying for me and others of a like mind is not a hobby. It is a discipline and I am just as passionate about it as the glider folk. My flying is about getting safely from A to B to C as safely as humanly possible, without putting my passenger or myself at risk. So each flight is planned to take account of weather, NOTAMs, terrain, danger areas, aircraft serviceability, etc. All known and knowable variables which can and should be considered to ensure a safe flight. But gliders are an unknowable variable which present a very real flight safety hazard. There is no way that I can plan ahead to deal with gliders, since they can appear at any height any place any altitude and going any which away.

The only way I can safely avoid the risk of a midair with a glider is not to fly when the gliders are flying.

So I try to avoid flying at weekends or during particularly good gliding weather, this also tends to keep me out of the way of lesser hazards like balloons and microlights.

Use of the radio with ATC and transponders helps, as no doubt does FLARM, but for now our safety still depends on looking out, and even that is not infallible. Here in West Wales the eventual fix for all this is under development. When UAVs or drones can fly anywhere in any weather without bumping into other aircraft then the situation will be transformed. Until then I at least will prefer to fly during the week and will go sailing at weekends.

[DaveUnwin]

" The only way I can safely avoid the risk of a midair with a glider is not to fly when the gliders are flying."

That's one way to avoid the gliders, but don't forget to include all the microlights, paragliders, paramotors and vintage aircraft that don't carry transponders (and which are of limited value anyway).

You also say "...without putting my passenger or myself at risk."

You're thousands of feet up in the air my friend - you have already put yourself and your passenger 'at risk'.

If you're really that concerned about it mate (a Grob 115 hit a glider awhile back - but glider/powered AC midairs really are quite rare) may I politely suggest you stick to sailing. Although even there you may wish to consider the words of John Donne.
"A ship in a harbour is safe. But that is not what ships are for."

[vee-tail-1]

Well Dave Unwin thank you for your advice. Perhaps I have been getting it all wrong for the last 40 years.

Curiously my methodology seems to have served me well in the military and the airlines ... but who am I to judge

[DaveUnwin]

Beats me. How does your airline dispatcher and crew scheduler react when you say "looks like a good gliding day today - so no flying for me!"

Allow me to break it down for you.

You said

" The only way I can safely avoid the risk of a midair with a glider is not to fly when the gliders are flying "

and you also said

"Curiously my methodology (I asume you meant not flying when gliders are flying) seems to have served me well in the military and the airlines."

So, for the removal of all doubt, kindly explain how your methodology of "not flying when the gliders are flying" allegedly "served you well in the military and the airlines."

Seems like a simple enough question to me.

[vee-tail-1]

OMG you are really serious.

This is the Private flying forum and we are talking gliders & GA type aircraft flying low level in uncontrolled airspace.

There are no gliders in class A where I flew before retirement.

When flying a GA aeroplane in uncontrolled airspace.
"The only sure way I can safely avoid the risk of a midair with a glider is not to fly when the gliders are flying."
That does not imply that I won't fly, but the flight safety risk cannot be quantified and planned for as in CAS.

My main point which seems to have escaped you is the possibility of a technical fix for this.

[DaveUnwin]

Sorry, please excuse my confusion but you keep contradicting yourself.
Initially you said "Flying for me and others of a like mind is not a hobby."
This implied that you were flying commercially, but you've now added "When flying a GA aeroplane in uncontrolled airspace." This sort of implies you are flying for fun. If you're flying commercially in a GA aircraft, then why not file IFR?

Re improving seperation;- I am fully aware of the possibility of a technical fix for this particular problem. I believe I wrote about it in a magazine about ten years ago.

Oh, - you also said "Until then I at least will prefer to fly during the week."

Now, here's something that I would've thought an ex-military and ex-(or possibly current - who knows?) commercial pilot of 40 years standing might have been aware of, via the NOTAM system;- they hold some REALLY big comps during the week and 60+ sailplanes may launch from the same site and then set off on tasks hundreds of kilometres long..
Hope this helps.

[mary meagher]

Vee-tail and Dave Unwin, I am sure if you guys sat down in the bar and exchanged stories about the good old days and bought each other a pint, you would get along just fine.

According to your personal profile, Vee-tail, you are ex RAF bomber crew (was that a pilot or other crew?) and you have 11,500 hours in big aircraft, ex BA flight crew....and you are now a professional pilot, retired, living in Wales, and flying light aircraft from time to time. Is this a correct resume?

I am sorry that you have been irritated by the exchange, and seem to be resentful of glider traffic, which is restricted of course to uncontrolled airspace and so squeezed into smaller and smaller corridors. So if you are no longer flying in controlled airspace, it must be a worry to you that you may encounter one or more gliders.

Dav Unwin, I think Vee-tail has found the uncontrolled airspace more dangerous than the flying he used to do commercially; it would be nice to have a technical fix that was effective, but in the meantime, boys, there is no substitute for being alert and keeping a good lookout.

And flying above the level of convection is also more comfortable if you are really worried about gliders!

Vee-tail, let me present you with a challenge. Get in touch with the Black Mountains Gliding Club at Talgarth in Wales, and book an hour in a two seat glider with their local instructor and have a go at some real hill soaring.
It may just open you to a very new and wonderful experience.

Do let us know how you get on, if you are up for it!

Mary

[DaveUnwin]

Hi Mary, I remember flying your Cub at Talgarth about 24 years ago!

[vee-tail-1]

Thank you Mary

[mary meagher]

So will you accept my challenge to fly at Talgarth???????

We would love to hear about it if you do.