Strange encounter in the clouds tonight

[27/09]

Oh good grief! Another flying club lawyer sniping from the armchair.

........Not zero, but near zero and if he and the other 'idiot', as you term them, are happy to accept the trivial risk for some harmless fun then good luck to them

Delta V. I'm most certainly not a lawyer. In this part of the world it is most certainly not looked upon as "harmless fun"

The rules here for VFR flight are below 1000'AGL or 3000 AMSL" which ever is the higher of the two you must be clear of cloud and in sight of land or water, above these altitudes you must the 1000' vertically and 1nm horizontally clear of cloud, other wise you need to be flying IFR on an IFR plan.

Obviously the UK has a far more relaxed interpretation of VFR flight.

If it's legal in the UK and while it's no doubt fun, I'm not convinced it's smart.

[Above The Clouds]

27/09
In this part of the world it is most certainly not looked upon as "harmless fun"

Oh well that's life over here it's normal, which country are you referring to ?

[27/09]

Above the Clouds, over here is New Zealand.

[Mach Jump]

Obviously the UK has a far more relaxed interpretation of VFR flight.

No. Our VFR rules are much the same as yours. The difference is that, outside CAS, we can go VFR-IFR-VFR without any formality.


MJ

[Above The Clouds]

27/09
Assuming you are qualified, what would you do if flying from A to B VFR but encountered wx that would require a period of flying in cloud then return to VFR flight to destination. Not criticising just asking how it works in NZ.

[27/09]

No. Our VFR rules are much the same as yours. The difference is that, outside CAS, we can go VFR-IFR-VFR without any formality.

Thanks Mach Jump for the clarification.

I presume you mean VMC-IMC-VMC without formality.

I do still find it unusual to allow IMC flight like this, even or more especially outside controlled airspace. Even though I would consider it highly irregular it makes more sense to allow it in controlled airspace where someone is keeping and eye on things.

Do you, when flying IMC adhere to the IFR cruising levels etc?

I just hope none of you poms try this if you ever come over our way. There's already been far too much bent metal on our hillsides where some locals (usually inadvertently) have practiced the art of IMC VFR flight(I know that is a bit of an oxymoron, but it best describes the scenario).

[Intercepted]

Originally Posted by Mach Jump

No. Our VFR rules are much the same as yours. The difference is that, outside CAS, we can go VFR-IFR-VFR without any formality.


MJ

...if you have a valid IR(R). Statistics shows that IFR flying OCAS in UK actually pose less risk of a mid air collision compared to VFR flying. This might sound strange if you fly in a country where this type of flying is not possible.

[27/09]

Above the Clouds: 27/09
Assuming you are qualified, what would you do if flying from A to B VFR but encountered wx that would require a period of flying in cloud then return to VFR flight to destination. Not criticising just asking how it works in NZ.

No problem, I'm happy to answer.

I am IFR qualified. If I was on a VFR flight and encountered such weather there would be two options.

One; remain VFR and divert around the weather to the destination, return to my departure point or land at a suitable nearby airfield.

Two; if I was able to join an IFR route at or above MSA I would pick up an IFR clearance.

The other option you seem to allude to, that is just go IMC to get to VMC conditions runs shivers of fear up my spine. Too many people have got killed doing that.

[Mach Jump]

I presume you mean VMC-IMC-VMC without formality.

Yes. In this case it means the same thing, as flight in IMC requires flight under IFR.

So, you can be flying under VFR in VMC, then IFR in IMC for a period, then return to VFR in VMC.


MJ

[Above The Clouds]

27/09
One; remain VFR and divert around the weather to the destination, return to my departure point or land at a suitable nearby airfield.

Two; if I was able to join an IFR route at or above MSA I would pick up an IFR clearance.

The other option you seem to allude to, that is just go IMC to get to VMC conditions runs shivers of fear up my spine. Too many people have got killed doing that.

Ok it seems to be joining an IFR route that is the difference, what would be wrong with climbing to MSA or MORA flying the correct semi circular altitude or FL, if there is no ATC then board cast your intentions if required and continuing ? in many parts of the world there are places with no published IFR routes but you can still operate IFR outside controlled airspace especially in remote areas.

[maxred]

The other option you seem to allude to, that is just go IMC to get to VMC conditions runs shivers of fear up my spine. Too many people have got killed doing that.

Yes, they have. I also understand what Piper was doing. Personally, I don't do that, much rather dart in between them, and cloud skim, rather than go in them. I don't really like flying in cloud.

I think the danger, if you perceive any danger, is the situational awareness, of going from VFR-IFR-VFR, for no other reason than doing it. I get the descending/ascending through cloud following a plan, but to just enter cloud, no, not for me. The scan has to quickly adjust, then re adjust, unless of course you press AP

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The other option you seem to allude to, that is just go IMC to get to VMC conditions runs shivers of fear up my spine. Too many people have got killed doing that.

One doesn't (at least I don't) "just go IMC".


One flies in accordance with IFR, which includes MSA as well as cruising level (and the appropriate altimetry). (But in the UK outside controlled airspace it doesn't involve much else - no flight plan, no need to talk to anybody - the clue is in "outside controlled airspace".)


If I haven't prepared for an IFR flight, eg I don't know where MSA is, then I don't go into IMC. Messing around in clouds is something I do only when I've planned the flight as IFR (even if I'm expecting to fly all of it VFR). (Knowing "I'm safe above x,000' within y nm of my home field" would count as "planning" a local bimble for IFR.)

[27/09]

Ok it seems to be joining an IFR route that is the difference, what would be wrong with climbing to MSA or MORA flying the correct semi circular altitude or FL, if there is no ATC then board cast your intentions if required and continuing ? in many parts of the world there are places with no published IFR routes but you can still operate IFR outside controlled airspace especially in remote areas.

You still need to be on an IFR plan, whether or not you're in controlled airspace. You need to contact ATC to file that plan.

Also you need to be able to climb to MSA and have your clearance in VMC prior to going IMC.

Broadcasting blind is futile as for many parts of the country there is no designated frequency outside of controlled airspace.

There is a lot of IFR flight outside of controlled airspace over here. When we operate outside of controlled airspace on an IFR plan ATC will advise all known IFR traffic. The last thing you need is some clown bimbling around IMC and not on a plan as you're going past some small airfield in descent to your destination.

[vector4fun]

In the U.S. as well, in uncontrolled airspace, you can fly IFR/IMC without a clearance. Thing is, except for some remote, usually mountainous areas of the Western U.S. and Alaska, there's very little useable uncontrolled airspace left. As a controller, I was *not authorized* to issue a clearance outside controlled airspace. Pilot is on his own.

[stevelup]

Originally Posted by 27/09

You still need to be on an IFR plan, whether or not you're in controlled airspace. You need to contact ATC to file that plan.

Are you talking about in NZ or generally, because if you're talking generally then that's simply not true.

Also you need to be able to climb to MSA and have your clearance in VMC prior to going IMC.

Clearance into what? You can't be cleared into uncontrolled airspace.

The last thing you need is some clown bimbling around IMC and not on a plan as you're going past some small airfield in descent to your destination.

So you are calling everyone who flies in IMC OCAS in the UK clowns?

[27/09]

Steve

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious to anyone following the conversation that I was talking about New Zealand.

I was talking about an IFR clearance.

As for the clown comment once again if you'd been reading the thread you'd know it is illegal to fly in IMC in NZ unless you're on an IFR plan. Anyone doing so who isn't on an IFR plan is an idiot. The term clown was being very complimentary. What you want to call them in the UK is up to you.

I know it's legal to fly IMC without a plan in the UK, however I don't consider it very smart, so yes, I'd probably still call them a clown or something similar.

[dont overfil]

In the U.S. as well, in uncontrolled airspace, you can fly IFR/IMC without a clearance.

I understood that all airspace in the USA above 1250ft was class E therefore controlled for IFR. Have I misinterpreted that?

I know it's legal to fly IMC without a plan in the UK, however I don't consider it very smart, so yes, I'd probably still call them a clown or something similar.

There are airlines in the UK regularly flying in class G airspace IMC without radar cover (only procedural service). I don't see what protection a fight plan can offer in these circumstances.

D.O.

[Vilters]

As long as I can see the fog, I am VMC.

[vector4fun]

I understood that all airspace in the USA above 1250ft was class E therefore controlled for IFR. Have I misinterpreted that?

In the lower 48 states, Class E exists above 1200 or 700 AGL for 99% of the country, but there are still some areas where class G extends up to 10,000' and higher. South and Southeast of Reno/Tahoe are examples. Others further north as well.

[wsmempson]

IFR OCAS, maintaining your own terrain clearance is perfectly normal in the UK. In fact, the statistics in the UK are unequivocal about how much safer you are IFR OCAS than VFR.

I think that it is unreasonable to call someone a 'clown' for holding a different POV to you, when they are doing something that in the UK is legal and normal.