Radio frequency issue on flight
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Radio frequency issue on flight
On a recent trip to Swansea from Blackpool we were making our way down through the welsh countryside. After Liverpool approach passed us on to London we remained with them for the rest of the way down to Swansea. Upon our decent in to Swansea I requested frequency change to Swansea radio. We did not receive any response and realised we had lost them and agreed it had been quite quiet for some time now. We alerted Swansea to what had happened just in case any one was beginning to wonder where we were. We were squawking mode C with code from London info. Does any one have any advice or suggestions to what we could have done or if this has happened to others before?
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
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The correct procedure if you cannot make contact with a frequency is normally to change back to your last frequency but tell the other frequency why and what you are doing and what frequency you are going too because they may be able to hear you. London info can phone Swansea and see what the problem is, advise you if the frequency is correct and advise you if the airfield is actually open. (CRM = use ATC)
Swansea is an Air/Ground facility so it may well be that whoever is using the radio is also involved with other duties and may not have been able to answer your call and you should not expect the same response time from A/G as from AFIS(in my opinion)
You should however have been familiar with the AIP entry for Swansea that states
[I]EGFH AD 2.22 FLIGHT PROCEDURES
1 Radio Communication Failure Procedures
(a) If a radio communications failure is experienced after establishment of RTF contact, a standard overhead joining
procedure is to be flown for the notified runway in use and circuit direction. If RTF contact has not been established,
unless an emergency is experienced which requires immediate landing, the ATZ is not to be entered, and a diversion
made to a suitable alternate aerodrome.
Swansea is an Air/Ground facility so it may well be that whoever is using the radio is also involved with other duties and may not have been able to answer your call and you should not expect the same response time from A/G as from AFIS(in my opinion)
You should however have been familiar with the AIP entry for Swansea that states
[I]EGFH AD 2.22 FLIGHT PROCEDURES
1 Radio Communication Failure Procedures
(a) If a radio communications failure is experienced after establishment of RTF contact, a standard overhead joining
procedure is to be flown for the notified runway in use and circuit direction. If RTF contact has not been established,
unless an emergency is experienced which requires immediate landing, the ATZ is not to be entered, and a diversion
made to a suitable alternate aerodrome.
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The correct procedure if you cannot make contact with a frequency is normally to change back to your last frequency but tell the other frequency why and what you are doing and what frequency you are going too because they may be able to hear you.......
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Thanks every one for the replies. Just to clarify it was London info that we lost not Swansea. Upon arrival at Swansea we informed them of our issue in case London info got on the phone. It certainly was a learning curve and a reminder to ensure radio checks more frequently. All in all good flight out though. Swansea was lovely.
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Don't we all do that when we do our FREDA checks?
Re: losing Info service, happens all the time up here in Scotland because of the hills. You just have to roll with it and pick it up later or if entering another sector dial in the new frequency and see if you can get them, if not wait and try later.
Swansea AG. Rather helpful chaps indeed, I had an unscheduled stop there after a cross channel flight without filing a GAR, they got it all sorted out with the cops based in Cardiff and ordered me a taxi to the hotel, although I did detect a bit of Swansea v Cardiff rivalry that made me laugh, as when they realised they had to call the GAR special branch folks there was a roll of the eyes and a sigh when the AG guy said to the the fire volunteer " I suppose we will have to call those Cardiff pratts"
Last edited by piperboy84; 20th Jul 2015 at 17:19.
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Johnm.... quote.... 'there's nobody to talk to except D&D on the way through Wales'
Is this because D&D have better radio coverage than London Info, with more radio repeater stations on Welsh hill-tops?
Or are you expecting a reply from an Air-France 777 on route from Paris to Toronto (at FL380.)?
I'm just interested in the Radio Engineering systems involved.
Edit... As I am so interested in the 121.5 coverage, I Googled it and came up with ...
https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_D&D_poster.pdf
So No special equipment.... just a Radio and Aerial somewhere Down South.
.
Is this because D&D have better radio coverage than London Info, with more radio repeater stations on Welsh hill-tops?
Or are you expecting a reply from an Air-France 777 on route from Paris to Toronto (at FL380.)?
I'm just interested in the Radio Engineering systems involved.
Edit... As I am so interested in the 121.5 coverage, I Googled it and came up with ...
https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_gad_D&D_poster.pdf
So No special equipment.... just a Radio and Aerial somewhere Down South.
.
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FREDA I'm sure you can google, but it is a mnemonic used for periodic checks when enroute.
Stands for
Re D&D - that is an old document.
This one is newer:
http://airspacesafety.com/wp-content...n_shawbury.pdf
Essentially - coverage will be pretty good above 3000 feet UK wide, although in practice will be better than that. Note that London Centre now cover all of the UK, with directional finding stations now also covering Scotland. If you have a genuine emergency - evidence shows an airliner is likely to pick up your transmission.
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- Fuel
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Re D&D - that is an old document.
This one is newer:
http://airspacesafety.com/wp-content...n_shawbury.pdf
Essentially - coverage will be pretty good above 3000 feet UK wide, although in practice will be better than that. Note that London Centre now cover all of the UK, with directional finding stations now also covering Scotland. If you have a genuine emergency - evidence shows an airliner is likely to pick up your transmission.
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All the previous info regarding D&D is out of date as now the D&D cell at Swanwick covers the whole of the UK including Scotland. As for 121.5 coverage I have not got a civerage chart to show but I do know the coverage over Scotland below 5000ft is very patchy.
As for the first post regarding losing comms with London information, as VHF is line of site there will be places if operating at low level and especially around higher terrain comms will be lost.
Being one of the voices of Scottish Information I know the areas and levels that I will lose comms with aircraft. If an aircraft is routing through one of those areas I will generally advise the flight that I expect to lose comms and where I would expect to regain comms.
If you do lose comms dont worry, we will not be too concerned but in general will normally phone your destination just to make sure you arrived safely although saying that there is no legal requirement to do so.
Hope this info helps.
As for the first post regarding losing comms with London information, as VHF is line of site there will be places if operating at low level and especially around higher terrain comms will be lost.
Being one of the voices of Scottish Information I know the areas and levels that I will lose comms with aircraft. If an aircraft is routing through one of those areas I will generally advise the flight that I expect to lose comms and where I would expect to regain comms.
If you do lose comms dont worry, we will not be too concerned but in general will normally phone your destination just to make sure you arrived safely although saying that there is no legal requirement to do so.
Hope this info helps.
Pull what wrote:
...which misunderstood the OP. However, since it was mentioned, may I disagree strongly with the opinion about AGCS units. If an AGCS unit is notified, then the service is to be provided during the published hours of operation - and that means answering calls!
2 s
Swansea is an Air/Ground facility so it may well be that whoever is using the radio is also involved with other duties and may not have been able to answer your call and you should not expect the same response time from A/G as from AFIS(in my opinion)
2 s
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...which misunderstood the OP. However, since it was mentioned, may I disagree strongly with the opinion about AGCS units. If an AGCS unit is notified, then the service is to be provided during the published hours of operation - and that means answering calls!
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Me too. If a call is not directly addressed to me as 'XXXXXX Radio' (eg. a position report) I reserve the option not to reply, especially if I have nothing useful to offer. AGCS is not an Air Traffic Service. Many AGCS operators have other tasks, some of which could be 'primary'...