South east london VFR flight - advice required

[Emkay]

I want to fly a local VFR route as follows:

http://s23.postimg.org/591pkqii3/Big...eds_castle.png

What would be the safest way to fly this route, in terms of the different ATSUs I should contact?

Is biggin approach likely to keep a hold of me or would they recommend I contact rochester information or london information when out to the east?

Note I already have an idea on what I should do, thought would like to see how other more experienced pilots would approach it

[Meldrew]

After leaving Biggin zone. i would call Farnborough East for that route

[Emkay]

So you would not say it's necessary to call rochester information?

[Meldrew]

Informing Farnborough that you were leaving the frequency briefly to call Rochester info, would be an option. However, you do not appear to be particularly close to their zone, and in good VMC, a keen look out is all that is required. Also, if you have requested a Basic Service from Farnborough, they would keep you informed of other traffic if not too busy on the frequency. However, the resposibility is always yours to see and avoid in VFR flight. I would monitor Rochester frequency on the other radio, if you have one, and if the chatter indicates lots of activity, then it would be a good idea to give them a courtesy call. Hope this helps.

[ChickenHouse]

On a sunny day there will be a lot of VFR traffic squeezing between London and Southend, so if equipped with COM2 I would always keep a half ear to the traffic passing by. Otherwise it does look pretty straightforward. Rule of thumb - listen to where the traffic is and call only wherewhen necessary.

[adambsmith]

Cat D airspace (2500' to 3500') on the Sittingbourne to the Rochester leg so you'll need to talk to Southend unless you're outside the 2500' to 3500' range. Also you'll be fairly close to Southend's SE CTA where the limits are 1500' to 3500.

Cat A LTMA from 2500' up too for most of your route.

[Talkdownman]

Simply lookout.

Assuming in Class G airspace: Other than the Biggin ATZ your route is not within a 'known traffic environment' or Regulated Airspace (subject to any temporary airspace reclassification) and there is no obligation for you to contact anybody outside the Biggin ATZ. Basic Service is neither a traffic service nor a surveillance service. If you require a Traffic Service contact Farnborough LARS East 120.225, but don't be surprised if the service is not available.

Remember, VHF R/T is not a primary flight control. Lookout is part of collision-avoidance and therefore Navigation. Navigation comes before Communication.

Enjoy your flight.

[adambsmith]

Isn't the Sittingbourne to the North of Rochester leg in Class D (limits as noted above)? Am I missing something - surely there will be some talk to Southend in this regard if entering their airspace?

[TheiC]

Without having checked against a current chart:

I used to transit this area regularly, and we often went IFR at 3,000 or 4,000, because it's busy in the FIR. But:

You could:

Report leaving Biggin's ATZ
Call Biggin for rejoin (somewhere around Sevenoaks is sensible)

I would probably remain below 2,500 ft QNH and:

Talk to Biggin (obviously), until leaving their ATZ, at least.
Talk to Farnborough (as suggested above)
Keep a little further north of Rochester (getting clearance into Southend if you go far enough north for it) or talk to Rochester from slightly east of Gravesend to north abeam Farthing Corner (especially in there is any south in the wind) and then talk to Farnborough
Talk to Biggin

But MOST IMPORTANTLY IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD: look out diligently, and use TCAS if you have it.

if you have requested a Basic Service from Farnborough, they would keep you informed of other traffic if not too busy on the frequency

Emphatically, no: they 'might', perhaps, but certainly not 'would'. If you want a traffic service, ask for it.

[jollyrog]

Your route probably won't look like that.

Normal departure from Biggin is 21. Used to be with left turn at 2nm. Now they have some nonsense with left turn at 3nm.

So, suggest one of the following:
Start with Biggin. After turning left at 3nm, give Gatwick a call as you infringe their zone.

Or, confirm left turn 3nm with Biggin, but at 2.5 call them back and say "leaving the ATZ, squawking 7000 and changing en-route", then turn immediate left.

Other than that, turn the volume down, call Biggin for rejoin. No need to talk to anyone.


Leeds Castle aren't keen on low overflights, it upsets the birds I'm told and Headcorn get the blame. Just bear that one in mind.

[TheiC]

Now they have some nonsense with left turn at 3nm

...which is only published in the IAIP under EGKB AD 2.21 Noise Abatement Procedures section 2 'Noise Preferential Routings – IFR Departures', so the pilot of a departing VFR aircraft would have no need to read it before setting off. Clearly the entry needs updating if it is to have clear relevance to VFR departures. Otherwise, I have always understood that operating to/from an aerodrome requires tacit acceptance of their procedures, so if they say that the noise abatement is 'roll inverted at 50ft agl and turn on track' then that's what one should do.

[jollyrog]

It's what they tell you to do on the radio when departing VFR which will matter.

I agree that where possible and sensible, we should comply with the aerodrome NPRs. I don't think three miles is sensible, I expect before long aircraft will start blundering into Gatwick airspace.

[TheiC]

Rog, on the radio, they are simply reiterating what the aerodrome authority have published. In this respect, ATC are only the mouthpiece of that authority. Neither of us (I hope, for your sake) know the local noise lobby and how they have or haven't been managed by the aerodrome, but we do have some insight into what the consequences of that dialogue are for pilots.

Anyhow, we're getting off the point. I assumed, looking at the OP's plan, that he would establish on his track after whatever departure he flew, and I guess he's probably able to do that.

[Heston]

The only sensible options are Farnborough, or (what I would do) turn the radio off and enjoy the flight whilst maintaining a very good look out (but you always do that don't you, so no need for me to remind you) until its time to talk to Biggin again.

[Red Four]

Better option is to call Southend Radar on passing Swanley for Dartford for BS, as you will be passing very close to their airspace both vertically and laterally, better you are on their frequency than Farnborough's. Southend will generally keep you until after Maidstone when you inform them you want to contact Biggin Approach and squawk 7000.

[UV]

Note I already have an idea on what I should do, thought would like to see how other more experienced pilots would approach it

You can listen to some of the others and then make it as complicated as you like!

Its all outside anyone's airspace (including Leeds Castle...nothing published anywhere Ive ever heard of about keeping clear!) so enjoy and have a quiet flight talking to no-one. End of!

[TheiC]

UV, quite true. Have you ever watched a mid-air collision on radar? Seeing two tracks approach, knowing neither aircraft is on frequency, seeing them merge, and then random returns as the wreckage falls?

The OP asked:

What would be the safest way to fly this route, in terms of the different ATSUs I should contact?

Best of luck.

(Off the top of my head, mid air collisions in the UK run at one every eighteen months or so and average slightly over two fatalities each, and are in busy-ish airspace outside CAS).

If I wasn't clear above, I'd be getting at least a Traffic service, and also flying defensively.

[charliegolf]

and also flying defensively.

Do you sometimes fly aggressively then?

[Buttino]

Uou could squawk 0012 and listen in to Thames Radar on 132.7 after leaving Biggin as another option

[Talkdownman]

Thames is not a LARS unit. Thames is only interested if 0012 infringes CAS. Thames is not going to pipe up with unsolicited ATSOCAS.