Aircraft Types and Training
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Aircraft Types and Training
Hi,
I've completed my first 10 hours of flying on a Cessna 152 and have been eyeing off flying a Piper Warrior PA28.
I'm after some thoughts and opinions as to whether flying the Warrior would be of detriment to my training or would it be a good, worthwhile experience?
Should i wait until i'm a bit further into my training before considering flying something other than the C152?
I've completed my first 10 hours of flying on a Cessna 152 and have been eyeing off flying a Piper Warrior PA28.
I'm after some thoughts and opinions as to whether flying the Warrior would be of detriment to my training or would it be a good, worthwhile experience?
Should i wait until i'm a bit further into my training before considering flying something other than the C152?
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Being a bit lanky, I fly the PA-28 out of necessity, purely for the extra room. My club has both, 1x C152 but 11x PA28 so bit of flexibility as well incase one goes tits up.
I enjoy flying it , no reference point to compare the C152 though. Don't think it would be a detriment to your training to change aircraft. mix it up a bit!
all the best with it.
I enjoy flying it , no reference point to compare the C152 though. Don't think it would be a detriment to your training to change aircraft. mix it up a bit!
all the best with it.
Stick with one airplane type until you get your license. At 10 hours you need to be concentrating on the airplane handling fundamentals. Getting into a different airplane will set back your training and cost you more.
absilo,
BPF is giving you very good advice. Stick with one type during your training. Transition later.
My view is that moving up to a 172 after you have your licence, would be a better idea if you have been flying a 152.
BPF is giving you very good advice. Stick with one type during your training. Transition later.
My view is that moving up to a 172 after you have your licence, would be a better idea if you have been flying a 152.
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I started training on a 152, at 25 hrs I decided to change to a 172 as im 6'2 and comfort was an issue especially as I was starting longer flights on navigation exercise's.
it cost me 2 hours of extra training before being allowed solo on the 172, then 45 minutes of solo circuits before I continued with nav ex's.
I feel a lot more comfortable in the larger aircraft and it was what I intended flying when I get my licence anyway so in terms of hours ive lost nothing but the cost has increased.
it cost me 2 hours of extra training before being allowed solo on the 172, then 45 minutes of solo circuits before I continued with nav ex's.
I feel a lot more comfortable in the larger aircraft and it was what I intended flying when I get my licence anyway so in terms of hours ive lost nothing but the cost has increased.
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Feel free to have a go in another type. The important point is to learn about reading pilot operating handbooks and following them. POH developed out of the pilot notes produced for Air Transport Auxiliary pilots in the second world war. These pilots, mostly women, were able to fly anything from Spitfire to Stirling simply by climbing aboard and following the script.
It'll be good experience as part of your training. I flew warrior and 172 interchangeably during my training though I've never flown a 152 I admit.
It'll be good experience as part of your training. I flew warrior and 172 interchangeably during my training though I've never flown a 152 I admit.
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I'd suggest a compromise. 10 hours is a bit soon to be leaping between types but don't miss the opportunity to get a seat in as many aircraft as possible, perhaps as part of your club or school's training activities with other pilots. For example, despite being (then) a fairly slender student learning in a C-A150, I formed part of many a load check in other aircraft. The back seat in navexes was another good spot.
When you've reached RPL/GPFT/... standard, you can realistically look at some conversion training. If you move to a C172, the conversion is minimal, with perhaps a little bit more time needed for a PA28 etc - mainly to familiarize yourself with systems and handling differences. By this time you have the basics under control and the extra experience is wholly positive.
When you've reached RPL/GPFT/... standard, you can realistically look at some conversion training. If you move to a C172, the conversion is minimal, with perhaps a little bit more time needed for a PA28 etc - mainly to familiarize yourself with systems and handling differences. By this time you have the basics under control and the extra experience is wholly positive.
I flew 3 types during my training - mostly PA38 and PA28, but with a little time on a Super-Decathlon.
I thought it was wholly positive, but didn't start on the PA28 until I was doing NAVEXes and had the basics nailed.
I thought it was wholly positive, but didn't start on the PA28 until I was doing NAVEXes and had the basics nailed.
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I am a great fan of mixing up aircraft types.
BUT
I have just had a stroll through my log book and, to my surprise, all my PPL training was on C150 - 12 hours, followed by a 15 year break, then 49 hours over a 12 month period to PPL. So from a student point of view I am with Mr BPF.
Since then I have jumped at every opportunity to try whatever is available - 10 disparate varieties so far. This has (in my view) improved my handling and my adaptability. While the PA28 does have many things to recommend it, from my not-very-experienced point of view there is more airborne pleasure to be had with other machinery when it is available.
SD
BUT
I have just had a stroll through my log book and, to my surprise, all my PPL training was on C150 - 12 hours, followed by a 15 year break, then 49 hours over a 12 month period to PPL. So from a student point of view I am with Mr BPF.
Since then I have jumped at every opportunity to try whatever is available - 10 disparate varieties so far. This has (in my view) improved my handling and my adaptability. While the PA28 does have many things to recommend it, from my not-very-experienced point of view there is more airborne pleasure to be had with other machinery when it is available.
SD
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Change a horse in midstream? Bad idea! !
At only ten hours, you need to stick with the single type until you have your license. Chopping and changing leads to confusion, believe me! I learned to fly power in the 152, an excellent choice for the basics. And later, with a years experience, about 70 hours, changed to the Warrior to do the Instrument Rating. What you might enjoy is flying an aerobatic cleared Cessna 152 with an instructor, and do stalls, spins, unusual attitudes. That would be all excellent background and you would really understand your aircraft.
Johnm, those women ATP pilots were all well past their basic training by the time they could climb into a Lancaster or a Spitfire, read the handbook, and fly the critter from the factory to the RAF airbase.
Johnm, those women ATP pilots were all well past their basic training by the time they could climb into a Lancaster or a Spitfire, read the handbook, and fly the critter from the factory to the RAF airbase.
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I could have noted that the Australian "staging points" I mentioned (e.g. RPL) are at the 30-35 hr mark, after which there is more navigation training. At the RPL point and beyond, diversity is certainly your friend.
abgd's mention of the Decathlon jogged my personal memory of another fantastic bit of free, pre-PPL experience. In some places owners need aircraft ferried to and from maintenance shops. I scored some good RH seat time on ferry flights and it was a great way of learning about cross-country flying and the operation of a number of aircraft types.
It's a truism that learning to fly your 152 well will stand you in excellent stead for flying other aircraft, so don't feel pressured on that score. With the possible exception of some LSA types, turning in an impeccable stick and rudder performance on the little Cessna is actually more difficult than on many sexier types you'll fly - at least the nosewheel types.
abgd's mention of the Decathlon jogged my personal memory of another fantastic bit of free, pre-PPL experience. In some places owners need aircraft ferried to and from maintenance shops. I scored some good RH seat time on ferry flights and it was a great way of learning about cross-country flying and the operation of a number of aircraft types.
It's a truism that learning to fly your 152 well will stand you in excellent stead for flying other aircraft, so don't feel pressured on that score. With the possible exception of some LSA types, turning in an impeccable stick and rudder performance on the little Cessna is actually more difficult than on many sexier types you'll fly - at least the nosewheel types.
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They used to send pilots off in Spitfires with those hours! I am not recommending that 
but really too much is made of going from one simple aeroplane to another and conversions to such types which are probably more about revenue generation for a reasonably competent low time pilot
Pace
but really too much is made of going from one simple aeroplane to another and conversions to such types which are probably more about revenue generation for a reasonably competent low time pilotPace
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I agree Pace, it's all a load of pish.
From personal experience, I'd say fly the clubs 152's 172's and PA28's
during ppl. If a particular a/c goes u/s it leaves a plan B open.
Any competent 152 driver should be able to fly a 172 without little or no instruction. I know because I did, back in the days when you didn't need a check-out every time the bog roll in the toilet was changed.
The jump [if you can call it that] into a PA28 is just familiarisation with the panel and the manual flap lever. Other than numbers, that's it!
From personal experience, I'd say fly the clubs 152's 172's and PA28's
during ppl. If a particular a/c goes u/s it leaves a plan B open.
Any competent 152 driver should be able to fly a 172 without little or no instruction. I know because I did, back in the days when you didn't need a check-out every time the bog roll in the toilet was changed.
The jump [if you can call it that] into a PA28 is just familiarisation with the panel and the manual flap lever. Other than numbers, that's it!
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Personally, I tried as many types as possible during my PPL course (C152, C172, PA28 160 & 180 & Glass cockpit), and also flew some sorties at other locations than my ATO when on holiday abroad. I felt it expanded my horizons and widened my skills.
However, these were just 'tasters' and I completed my course on the PA28 I was flying from the beginning.
I think it depends on you and your personality. Go for it for an hour and you will soon realise if you feel 'lost' with a new cockpit layout and flying characteristics/nose attitude etc. etc. If you are indeed lost, then just go back to the C152. If not, then stay with the new one.
Sooner or later, you will probably want to change the type you fly, but don't force it upon yourself too early if you don't feel comfortable with it. But do try it, you've got nothing to lose.
B.
However, these were just 'tasters' and I completed my course on the PA28 I was flying from the beginning.
I think it depends on you and your personality. Go for it for an hour and you will soon realise if you feel 'lost' with a new cockpit layout and flying characteristics/nose attitude etc. etc. If you are indeed lost, then just go back to the C152. If not, then stay with the new one.
Sooner or later, you will probably want to change the type you fly, but don't force it upon yourself too early if you don't feel comfortable with it. But do try it, you've got nothing to lose.
B.
In my opinion, for this training, it is better to stick with one type. The familiarity makes for a better learning environment whilst developing basic skills.
Subsequently, switching types - with due reference to the manual and/or instructor time is very good for any pilot - but that's once the basic flying skillset have been developed.
But at 10 hrs, I'd stick with the C152 unless there is any strong reason to do otherwise.
I also think that whilst the PA28 is a good touring aeroplane, it's a poor training aeroplane - most especially the very forgiving handling, benign stalling characteristics, and slightly more complex cockpit than is really needed for the basic training role. The C152 makes you work a little harder, and is lighter on the controls - that tends to create a slightly better training environment.
G
Subsequently, switching types - with due reference to the manual and/or instructor time is very good for any pilot - but that's once the basic flying skillset have been developed.
But at 10 hrs, I'd stick with the C152 unless there is any strong reason to do otherwise.
I also think that whilst the PA28 is a good touring aeroplane, it's a poor training aeroplane - most especially the very forgiving handling, benign stalling characteristics, and slightly more complex cockpit than is really needed for the basic training role. The C152 makes you work a little harder, and is lighter on the controls - that tends to create a slightly better training environment.
G
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I learned to fly in C-150 and stayed with it till PPL was done.
Then I was checked out in a MS 383, by an instructor.
Then I was checked out in a C-172, by an instructor.
Some weeks later I bought a Jodel-Wassmer D-120.
I did one flight with the previous owner; That was my first tailwheel landing as a passenger.
I flew the plane home, and did my first tailwheel landing at out home airfield. I had that D-120 for about 8 years and took it all over Europe.
All other planes I flew was something like : "Here's the book, there's the plane." And that went up to C-210's and SF-260.
Or: Oeps, no book but it's just like ..... Have fun, when willl ya be back?
Three rules :
- Always do a first flight alone, never take passengers on a fist flight.
- Respect somebody elses aircraft as if it is your own.
- Always give the plane back in a better state as you got it.
Flew all the club's airplanes and most privately owned airplanes at our club this way.
Over the years, some club rules changed.
Nowadays, a checkut in any of the club planes by an instructor is required by club rules, but stricy legaly? You can check out yourself. This last is NOT valid in all countries.
Till PPL?
- I propose to stick to one airplane.
- Fly to learn.
- Be on a mission.
- Sightseeing or Joy? => Time enough for that after PPL.
- Work, work, work. Study, study, study. Have a set of goals for each flight, and work at getting to know how an airplane is supposed to fly.
I remember one thing during those first years.
It must have been around my 35 hr mark?
The regular C-150's in our club were in maintenance, so, I got the C-150A (aerobat) to do a nav.
Direct after take off and flaps in, I turned downwind and landed.
I went to our instructor and said; "Man, that thing is out of rig. I am not gonna pedal it around Belgium you know."
We went up together, and I showed that indeed, the aircraft was out of rig, needing a constant aileron and pedal input.
Being a beginning A&P also, we opened the books, and the airplane, and indeed, one of the adjustable bolts on the rear spar was out of alingment and needed adjusting.
Talking to the pilots that used to fly the thing? "Oh, that has Always been that way." Well, we adjusted, and everybody happy.
Airplanes in cruise are build to fly straight and level. If they don't? Something needs finetuning.
Something similar happened a few years later when I test-flew a Jodel, fresh out of restauration. Another testpilot did the first flight, and then asked me to do the second as "there was something". 3 Test-flight later it flew straight and level hands off, exactly as mine did.
"Knowing" the aircraft you are flying is pretty important; certainly up to and including the PPL test.
That is why I propose : Stick to one airplane till PPL. More then time enough for the rest after that.
Then I was checked out in a MS 383, by an instructor.
Then I was checked out in a C-172, by an instructor.
Some weeks later I bought a Jodel-Wassmer D-120.
I did one flight with the previous owner; That was my first tailwheel landing as a passenger.
I flew the plane home, and did my first tailwheel landing at out home airfield. I had that D-120 for about 8 years and took it all over Europe.
All other planes I flew was something like : "Here's the book, there's the plane." And that went up to C-210's and SF-260.
Or: Oeps, no book but it's just like ..... Have fun, when willl ya be back?
Three rules :
- Always do a first flight alone, never take passengers on a fist flight.
- Respect somebody elses aircraft as if it is your own.
- Always give the plane back in a better state as you got it.
Flew all the club's airplanes and most privately owned airplanes at our club this way.
Over the years, some club rules changed.
Nowadays, a checkut in any of the club planes by an instructor is required by club rules, but stricy legaly? You can check out yourself. This last is NOT valid in all countries.
Till PPL?
- I propose to stick to one airplane.
- Fly to learn.
- Be on a mission.
- Sightseeing or Joy? => Time enough for that after PPL.
- Work, work, work. Study, study, study. Have a set of goals for each flight, and work at getting to know how an airplane is supposed to fly.
I remember one thing during those first years.
It must have been around my 35 hr mark?
The regular C-150's in our club were in maintenance, so, I got the C-150A (aerobat) to do a nav.
Direct after take off and flaps in, I turned downwind and landed.
I went to our instructor and said; "Man, that thing is out of rig. I am not gonna pedal it around Belgium you know."
We went up together, and I showed that indeed, the aircraft was out of rig, needing a constant aileron and pedal input.
Being a beginning A&P also, we opened the books, and the airplane, and indeed, one of the adjustable bolts on the rear spar was out of alingment and needed adjusting.
Talking to the pilots that used to fly the thing? "Oh, that has Always been that way." Well, we adjusted, and everybody happy.
Airplanes in cruise are build to fly straight and level. If they don't? Something needs finetuning.
Something similar happened a few years later when I test-flew a Jodel, fresh out of restauration. Another testpilot did the first flight, and then asked me to do the second as "there was something". 3 Test-flight later it flew straight and level hands off, exactly as mine did.
"Knowing" the aircraft you are flying is pretty important; certainly up to and including the PPL test.
That is why I propose : Stick to one airplane till PPL. More then time enough for the rest after that.
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Thank you everyone!
Cost isn't the issue, there's no significant price difference between flying the two different aircraft. The cost might come in to play if i need extra training because i've confused myself or something along the lines of such.
Flying the PA-28 is not necessary but it's certainly enticing!
I've had a look at the checklists and manuals for the PA-28 for comparison and there doesn't seem to be all that much of a difference, in the manner of what the checklists involve, Vr is the same but things like BROC are different etc.
Although, taking into account how different the controls are in both aircraft as i've looked at different photographs of the PA-28 and compared it to the C152 and obviously they're quite different - That might be the challenge. I perceive the challenge as fun, however, i am training so fun can be reserved for a later date!
I'm very happy to be patient and wait until later on in my training to try the PA-28, as the majority of you have suggested. It's been great to get some perspective on the subject.
It was initially an instructor that planted the seed for thought. So i'm assuming i'm progressing competently enough to be able to fly the PA-28 at some point, but after some thought and having done my research, i'd prefer to wait until i've at the least surpassed my GFPT.
Cost isn't the issue, there's no significant price difference between flying the two different aircraft. The cost might come in to play if i need extra training because i've confused myself or something along the lines of such.
Flying the PA-28 is not necessary but it's certainly enticing!
I've had a look at the checklists and manuals for the PA-28 for comparison and there doesn't seem to be all that much of a difference, in the manner of what the checklists involve, Vr is the same but things like BROC are different etc.
Although, taking into account how different the controls are in both aircraft as i've looked at different photographs of the PA-28 and compared it to the C152 and obviously they're quite different - That might be the challenge. I perceive the challenge as fun, however, i am training so fun can be reserved for a later date!
I'm very happy to be patient and wait until later on in my training to try the PA-28, as the majority of you have suggested. It's been great to get some perspective on the subject.
It was initially an instructor that planted the seed for thought. So i'm assuming i'm progressing competently enough to be able to fly the PA-28 at some point, but after some thought and having done my research, i'd prefer to wait until i've at the least surpassed my GFPT.
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It's all going to be very personal, but for me learning to fly was hard enough without switching types. I did all my training on a C152 (although I flew several separate versions which were surprisingly different) and that was all my little brain could cope with - I had no desire to make things any more difficult than they already were!
Once I had my PPL I switched to a PA28, mainly becuase I wanted the four seats - my club didn't have any 172s so that wasn't an option at that time. So if you're finding the course easy, go for it. If you're finding it hard work, like I did, I would advise waiting. There's plenty of time later.
Once I had my PPL I switched to a PA28, mainly becuase I wanted the four seats - my club didn't have any 172s so that wasn't an option at that time. So if you're finding the course easy, go for it. If you're finding it hard work, like I did, I would advise waiting. There's plenty of time later.
