refurbishing an older aircraft
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refurbishing an older aircraft
Good morning all
New aircraft are very expensive these days.
Refurbishing (and upgrading) an older airplane has become an option.
Reading AOPA articles it does happen a lot in the US.
Undertaking such a project is not a small thing. Availability of parts is an important element in the success.
Reading the threads here, I have the "feeling" that availability of parts for Cessna's is not an issue, Beech also ok but expensive. Piper parts on the contrary are not readily available.
Havent read anything about such projects on a Mooney ???
My search goes out for a decent six seater. Piper Malibu/Matrix/Jetprop are one possibility.
Would love to hear your ideas, remarks.
Feel free to point out some shops that can undertake such a project (in Europe, the US is also possible..)
Thank you all
Ronny
New aircraft are very expensive these days.
Refurbishing (and upgrading) an older airplane has become an option.
Reading AOPA articles it does happen a lot in the US.
Undertaking such a project is not a small thing. Availability of parts is an important element in the success.
Reading the threads here, I have the "feeling" that availability of parts for Cessna's is not an issue, Beech also ok but expensive. Piper parts on the contrary are not readily available.
Havent read anything about such projects on a Mooney ???
My search goes out for a decent six seater. Piper Malibu/Matrix/Jetprop are one possibility.
Would love to hear your ideas, remarks.
Feel free to point out some shops that can undertake such a project (in Europe, the US is also possible..)
Thank you all
Ronny
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I have done several refurbs, on the aircraft I own, and a number for maintenance organizations. Your best starting point is to look at, and speak to the owners of aircraft done by the company you're considering. There can be a wide band of interpretation as the what the finished job should look like. Bear in mind that most aircraft left the factory with much more casual interior furnishing quality than would be accepted on even the junkiest new car these days!
Technically, it requires design approval (and STC) to change interior furnishings, but you will find a wide range of what shops are willing to sign out as repairs. Agree to all of this before hand, and in the quoting stages.
Any non metallic materials used are subject to demonstration of flammability compliance. This is a fussy task, as a simple statement from the maker, technically does not cut it. Acceptable test reports might be called upon - depending upon who is asking.
Do not cheap out. You're not going to all that effort, 'cause you think that you're going to resell the plane the following year (right?). Pay to have it done well. Leather for the seats, wool for the headliner, very good quality carpet*, and kydex panels where you can get them.
If paining inside is required, consider "splatter" paint, or texture paint, it tends to look better. Have it properly applied though - I spray canned one of my planes, and it is peeling
. If they're painting, mask everything else, splatter paint looks horrible on the face of your GPS!
For carpet, I recommend many smaller pieces, all edge bound, and velcro'd in, so you can easily get them out for cleaning, or replacement. Buy the "rest of the roll" - you'll need it one day. Or, and I prefer, use "coin matting". It is heavy and expensive, but it looks great, cleans easily, and lasts forever.
That's a start for you, this is a big topic!
Technically, it requires design approval (and STC) to change interior furnishings, but you will find a wide range of what shops are willing to sign out as repairs. Agree to all of this before hand, and in the quoting stages.
Any non metallic materials used are subject to demonstration of flammability compliance. This is a fussy task, as a simple statement from the maker, technically does not cut it. Acceptable test reports might be called upon - depending upon who is asking.
Do not cheap out. You're not going to all that effort, 'cause you think that you're going to resell the plane the following year (right?). Pay to have it done well. Leather for the seats, wool for the headliner, very good quality carpet*, and kydex panels where you can get them.
If paining inside is required, consider "splatter" paint, or texture paint, it tends to look better. Have it properly applied though - I spray canned one of my planes, and it is peeling
. If they're painting, mask everything else, splatter paint looks horrible on the face of your GPS!For carpet, I recommend many smaller pieces, all edge bound, and velcro'd in, so you can easily get them out for cleaning, or replacement. Buy the "rest of the roll" - you'll need it one day. Or, and I prefer, use "coin matting". It is heavy and expensive, but it looks great, cleans easily, and lasts forever.
That's a start for you, this is a big topic!
@ST: you seem to understand the question is about "having a plane refurbished" i.e. by a specialised company, or several. I rather read, though, T/S considers doing at least a big part of the job himself, or at least under his own control.
If that be correct, I should think it can only be attempted with any chance of success on a few national registries: US, perhaps France. Others might be possible by re-classifying the plane as an experimental (G-reg Staggerwing?).
But you certainly will need to have the work inspected and approved by a person or an organisation duly qualified. Find one, and discuss with them, before buying anything!
If that be correct, I should think it can only be attempted with any chance of success on a few national registries: US, perhaps France. Others might be possible by re-classifying the plane as an experimental (G-reg Staggerwing?).
But you certainly will need to have the work inspected and approved by a person or an organisation duly qualified. Find one, and discuss with them, before buying anything!
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Jan,
The OP specifically stated:
and doesn't mention that he is looking to take on any of the work himself.
SD
The OP specifically stated:
Feel free to point out some shops that can undertake such a project
SD
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I would be tempted to purchase, and renovate in the US. Then ferry the completed project over. There are some super deals going at the moment, and shops are plentiful, although type dependent, you would require to do some homework. My own view, and please it is my personal view, is that Europe, and the EU registry is too restrictive, and expensive, to undertake the purchase, and then renovation. Trust me, been there and done it.
Hone in on your type requirement, spend an evening on sites with planes to sell, then begin to make choices. It is an ABC, process, but the U.S. is pretty vast, with some good refurbished airframes, going at good rates.
Hone in on your type requirement, spend an evening on sites with planes to sell, then begin to make choices. It is an ABC, process, but the U.S. is pretty vast, with some good refurbished airframes, going at good rates.
From what I can see the full value in a refurb is still not reflected in the selling prices. IMO the very best deals are in purchasing an aircraft that has already been done.
On a related note I am becoming quite concerned about the fact that the GA supply chain is drying up. Many parts are now available only from a single vendor and prices can be all over the map or a critical parts are simply not available at any price.
A Friend of mine has a Cessna 340. On the last annual it was noted that the heating element on the stall warning vane was looking rather tatty. The first though was to just replace it until it was learned that a new one cost $ 7000 US
.
Now this vane is the exact same little piece of bent tin you find on any small aircraft with an electric stall warning horn like a Pa 28. The only difference is it has a small heating element glued onto the exposed part. A 1980's vintage parts catalog from Cessna listed it for $ 107.11
.
The more complicated the aircraft the more little valves, switches, actuators etc it has, some of which go for just silly money.
So the refurb is still just the start of the spending. Keeping the higher end airplanes going is getting increasingly expensive. BTW my friends aircraft is from a mechanical view point probably in the top 5 % of C 340's yet he still budgets $ 50,000 a year for maintenance.
On a related note I am becoming quite concerned about the fact that the GA supply chain is drying up. Many parts are now available only from a single vendor and prices can be all over the map or a critical parts are simply not available at any price.
A Friend of mine has a Cessna 340. On the last annual it was noted that the heating element on the stall warning vane was looking rather tatty. The first though was to just replace it until it was learned that a new one cost $ 7000 US
. Now this vane is the exact same little piece of bent tin you find on any small aircraft with an electric stall warning horn like a Pa 28. The only difference is it has a small heating element glued onto the exposed part. A 1980's vintage parts catalog from Cessna listed it for $ 107.11
. The more complicated the aircraft the more little valves, switches, actuators etc it has, some of which go for just silly money.
So the refurb is still just the start of the spending. Keeping the higher end airplanes going is getting increasingly expensive. BTW my friends aircraft is from a mechanical view point probably in the top 5 % of C 340's yet he still budgets $ 50,000 a year for maintenance.
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From experience with a Cessna Cardinal RG that was refurbished and tricked out with all the electronics. Just because it looks good does not mean it is good. The under carriage was out of alignment and the engine was not good yet over £100,000 pounds had been spent on purchase and fit out.
So sort the fundamentals before making it look good and adding electronics or it will be in/out of the shop forever.
If there is a type club join them before buying & learn all the problems, it will save thousands, then before purchase find an AP that actually knows the type in depth to do a survey, remember buyer beware it may be an uneconomic repair.
So sort the fundamentals before making it look good and adding electronics or it will be in/out of the shop forever.
If there is a type club join them before buying & learn all the problems, it will save thousands, then before purchase find an AP that actually knows the type in depth to do a survey, remember buyer beware it may be an uneconomic repair.
I have totally rebuilt my RAF Scottish Aviation Bulldog. It has cost me an arm and 3 legs. Importantly, I have spent far more than it is worth, but that is the usual story for refurbishing old aeroplanes or vintage motor cars. One rarely gets back what one has put into the project.
However,
it is a most satisfying task, very rewarding and the end result is something to be really proud off, especially if the aircraft is very special like a Piper Cub, Tiger Moth, Chippy, Bulldog etc.
Moreover, we are merely the temporary custodians of these fine aircraft and hopefully they will stay flying for many years to come.
However,
it is a most satisfying task, very rewarding and the end result is something to be really proud off, especially if the aircraft is very special like a Piper Cub, Tiger Moth, Chippy, Bulldog etc.
Moreover, we are merely the temporary custodians of these fine aircraft and hopefully they will stay flying for many years to come.
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Feel free to point out some shops that can undertake such a project (in Europe, the US is also possible..)
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If buying and refurbing an aircraft is the objective, getting a deal is not an element. It'll be more a matter of "I have this budget, what shall I do?".
To put some context on this, I bought a C 182 on behalf of a friend for US$74,000, and flew it across North America. I oversaw a complete rebuild and lots of mods in Canada. The undamaged airframe was 98% reused (a few skins replaced), and the fuel and brake lines were inspected and left in place. A couple of flight instruments were overhauled, and reused as standby for Garmin glass cockpit. Everything else was new. I test flew it three years later, as a STOL amphibian, powered by a 550 and MT reversing prop, with new paint, leather interior, and about every avionic you could install. It had passed the $800,000 mark all in. The aircraft is delivered, and my friend is delighted. Needless to say, good value was an objective, but economy was not.
You have to assign a budget, and know that as you go, surprises will pop up. You do not want to put together an aircraft, "leaving" something, which you know should be done. It'll cost twice as much later to go back in and redo it then. I have seen so many planes, and asked myself "Why did they put it back together needing that?".
It is true, research the type before you spend. Personally, though I enjoy flying them, I would not invest in a legacy Piper Cherokee series - too hard to get parts. I have grounded two for rather minor defects - no parts. Neither flew again, a third I was involved with just slipped through, expensively.
Make sure the plane you select is either structurally faultless, or easily repaired. Understand that once you're done, you'll have to fly a lot of time off before you can recover your investment - if you ever do. But, if you plan to fly for an investment, you're dreaming!
To put some context on this, I bought a C 182 on behalf of a friend for US$74,000, and flew it across North America. I oversaw a complete rebuild and lots of mods in Canada. The undamaged airframe was 98% reused (a few skins replaced), and the fuel and brake lines were inspected and left in place. A couple of flight instruments were overhauled, and reused as standby for Garmin glass cockpit. Everything else was new. I test flew it three years later, as a STOL amphibian, powered by a 550 and MT reversing prop, with new paint, leather interior, and about every avionic you could install. It had passed the $800,000 mark all in. The aircraft is delivered, and my friend is delighted. Needless to say, good value was an objective, but economy was not.
You have to assign a budget, and know that as you go, surprises will pop up. You do not want to put together an aircraft, "leaving" something, which you know should be done. It'll cost twice as much later to go back in and redo it then. I have seen so many planes, and asked myself "Why did they put it back together needing that?".
It is true, research the type before you spend. Personally, though I enjoy flying them, I would not invest in a legacy Piper Cherokee series - too hard to get parts. I have grounded two for rather minor defects - no parts. Neither flew again, a third I was involved with just slipped through, expensively.
Make sure the plane you select is either structurally faultless, or easily repaired. Understand that once you're done, you'll have to fly a lot of time off before you can recover your investment - if you ever do. But, if you plan to fly for an investment, you're dreaming!
A lot of people in the US restore their own N-register aircraft as a hobby, and it appears to me that this combined with experimental category aircraft will be the source for our US-based flying chariots over the next couple of decades. 
Obviously and as others have pointed out the simpler the plane the easier the project. Don't start with a $20K Cessna 310
One guy I know has over the last 20 years totally restored about three non-airworthy planes, and also built two homebuilts. The last Luscombe started with a 30 year desert stored plane that cost $5K initially, a negligible part of the final total which was probably $35K. He's a single airline pilot in case you're wondering how anybody has that much time available. Like most others doing this work, he'd networked into a community of people doing the same and the work is performed under supervision, logged and signed off by FAA A&P mechanics as appropriate. I bought one of his projects after completion, and its correct that he didn't get any return on his labor - I paid about the sum of his expenses. Its just a hobby for fun and he's happy enough now to see the plane well taken care of.
A lot of parts for certified aircraft can be repaired, or essentially made from scratch under FAA A.C. 4130, so a lot of people doing this kind of work are doing it on planes for which few airframe parts are available. Used parts can also be (repaired and) installed on N-register without great formality, as long as the mechanic judged them airworthy. Among people associated with a given type, there's a lot of parts trading.
Its seems to me that there's nothing in principle that would prevent somebody doing the same anywhere in the world, assuming the aircraft is normally certified on N-register or alternately in another country's sub-ICAO airworthiness regime. Unless I were very well connected I wouldn't beat my head against the wall trying it with a normally certified aircraft on one of the EASA registers.
Obviously and as others have pointed out the simpler the plane the easier the project. Don't start with a $20K Cessna 310 One guy I know has over the last 20 years totally restored about three non-airworthy planes, and also built two homebuilts. The last Luscombe started with a 30 year desert stored plane that cost $5K initially, a negligible part of the final total which was probably $35K. He's a single airline pilot in case you're wondering how anybody has that much time available. Like most others doing this work, he'd networked into a community of people doing the same and the work is performed under supervision, logged and signed off by FAA A&P mechanics as appropriate. I bought one of his projects after completion, and its correct that he didn't get any return on his labor - I paid about the sum of his expenses. Its just a hobby for fun and he's happy enough now to see the plane well taken care of.
A lot of parts for certified aircraft can be repaired, or essentially made from scratch under FAA A.C. 4130, so a lot of people doing this kind of work are doing it on planes for which few airframe parts are available. Used parts can also be (repaired and) installed on N-register without great formality, as long as the mechanic judged them airworthy. Among people associated with a given type, there's a lot of parts trading.
Its seems to me that there's nothing in principle that would prevent somebody doing the same anywhere in the world, assuming the aircraft is normally certified on N-register or alternately in another country's sub-ICAO airworthiness regime. Unless I were very well connected I wouldn't beat my head against the wall trying it with a normally certified aircraft on one of the EASA registers.
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Thank you all for your replies
Lots of good points, thank you so much.
Indeed one needs to start with a budget
I agree that I should first decide which aircraft I am looking for.
I also believe that the US is a good market to search, better is of course a plane that has been done. (And done the right way !!) . this will require patience.
Would like to hear your opinion about older Piper Matrix or Malibu's even Meridians. How readily available are parts for these airplanes?
Thank you
Ronny
Lots of good points, thank you so much.
Indeed one needs to start with a budget
I agree that I should first decide which aircraft I am looking for.
I also believe that the US is a good market to search, better is of course a plane that has been done. (And done the right way !!) . this will require patience.
Would like to hear your opinion about older Piper Matrix or Malibu's even Meridians. How readily available are parts for these airplanes?
Thank you
Ronny
