Question for Chuck and others
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Question for Chuck and others
Chuck has an interesting post in the 'Mary Meagher' thread.
Now here's a question for you then Chuck and something of a torch I carry; would you say that PPL's should have the first part of their training on gliders? I'm firmly of the opinion that they should. I'm not a flying instructor and have heard that some instructors give a little inwward groan if they get a glider pilot as a stude, much as they do if they get a flight sim expert. I have no doubt that my gliding experience made:
a) learning to fly powered no problem at all, apart from the R/T.
b) Makes me look at powered flying from a slightly different point of view to folk who have flown nothing but powered: in terms of I always fly looking for a field to land in, an engine failure in the cruise would just be an inconvenience and I understand how to spot land without the option of having another go.
I know that there is a very divided camp on this, and I don't want this to fall into the 'us and them' category that you often get with glider pilots and powered on this forum which I find a bit banal TBH. I fly gliders and powered and thoroughly enjoy both, they are both completely different disciplines and are for doing completely different things. You can't soar like a bird with outstanding visibility in an Arrow and you can't shove a couple of mates in a Discus and go to France for a crate of wine apiece.
Opinions from the great and good?
Flying sail planes is hands down one of the best type of flying I have ever done.
a) learning to fly powered no problem at all, apart from the R/T.
b) Makes me look at powered flying from a slightly different point of view to folk who have flown nothing but powered: in terms of I always fly looking for a field to land in, an engine failure in the cruise would just be an inconvenience and I understand how to spot land without the option of having another go.
I know that there is a very divided camp on this, and I don't want this to fall into the 'us and them' category that you often get with glider pilots and powered on this forum which I find a bit banal TBH. I fly gliders and powered and thoroughly enjoy both, they are both completely different disciplines and are for doing completely different things. You can't soar like a bird with outstanding visibility in an Arrow and you can't shove a couple of mates in a Discus and go to France for a crate of wine apiece.
Opinions from the great and good?
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I'll be one of the "others" 
. I'm not a glider pilot, nor an instructor, and although I have flown gliders with friends, I think my time gliding after engine failures actually exceeds my glider flying 
.
I believe that any flying is good flying, and the more different types (and classes)) the better! But when you commit to taking training, honour the training by applying yourself to that type, and your instructor.
. I'm not a glider pilot, nor an instructor, and although I have flown gliders with friends, I think my time gliding after engine failures actually exceeds my glider flying .I believe that any flying is good flying, and the more different types (and classes)) the better! But when you commit to taking training, honour the training by applying yourself to that type, and your instructor.
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When I was learning to fly gliders one of the senior instructors opined that before beginning gliding, pilots should get a PPL so they knew how to fly and could then learn how to soar!
I think both ideas are wrong.
Either power flying or gliding are valid ways into flying aeroplanes. They are different and complimentary.
I think both ideas are wrong.
Either power flying or gliding are valid ways into flying aeroplanes. They are different and complimentary.
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What next, compulsory diets to flying weights and nomex issue
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Why make navigating with a whiz wheel when everyone bins/sells them after the PPL compulsory then?
Sorry, back to the subject at hand....
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When I was learning to fly gliders one of the senior instructors opined that before beginning gliding, pilots should get a PPL so they knew how to fly and could then learn how to soar!
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Benefits from gliding.
Hi thing,
I learned to glide before I learned to fly power and believe I benefited from it in precisely the ways described, especially in regard to forced landings.
I certainly feel that low hours instructors, who have no gliding experience, also lack sensitivity to how the air-mass, in which they are flying, is moving. I well remember, when I first returned to powered flying after a break of many years, being told off for allowing the Pa28 in which I was being instructed to drift up or down. The instructor put this down purely to my failing to position the control column appropriately to remain level while I was able, by reading the clouds and the landscape, to see that we were in fact flying through rising or sinking air-masses. But he wouldn't listen - oh no, he was the instructor!
Having to dead-stick a powered aeroplane now would be something I now feel I would probably be able to take in my stride - should it ever happen. However so far it hasn't happened, so the 'proof of the pudding' remains to be tested.
To be sure, when I first started learning to fly a powered aeroplane my instructor had to de-gliderise me. At first, I was kicking the Auster's rudder pedals all over the shop and the Auster had an extremely sensitive rudder. But apart from that the overall experience of flying power was not too dissimilar to gliding so I learned power more quickly than someone new to flying ab-initio.
The gliders I flew at Dunstable were the Slingsby T21, (known to the ATC, I believe, by the name Sedbergh,) and the Kirby Prefect. Both of these were primary gliders of a fairly early vintage. As such they had an angle of descent that would hardly be acceptable today. The average flight, unless you were lucky enough to catch a thermal straight off the winch, was about 6 minutes. So during the course of a week's course you did quite a few take-offs and landings. You could obtain the most important advantages of gliding to subsequent power flying within the space of a week's course.
But that was in the sixties. The present day newcomer to gliding, I believe, gets to fly aircraft that have a vastly better angle of glide, so that more instruction in things other than circuits and landing can be squeezed into each flight. This means fewer take-offs and landings. So I imagine today you would possibly need to glide for perhaps much of a summer season to gain the same number of landings and hence the same amount of 'forced landing' experience.
Regards,
BP.
I learned to glide before I learned to fly power and believe I benefited from it in precisely the ways described, especially in regard to forced landings.
I certainly feel that low hours instructors, who have no gliding experience, also lack sensitivity to how the air-mass, in which they are flying, is moving. I well remember, when I first returned to powered flying after a break of many years, being told off for allowing the Pa28 in which I was being instructed to drift up or down. The instructor put this down purely to my failing to position the control column appropriately to remain level while I was able, by reading the clouds and the landscape, to see that we were in fact flying through rising or sinking air-masses. But he wouldn't listen - oh no, he was the instructor!
Having to dead-stick a powered aeroplane now would be something I now feel I would probably be able to take in my stride - should it ever happen. However so far it hasn't happened, so the 'proof of the pudding' remains to be tested.
To be sure, when I first started learning to fly a powered aeroplane my instructor had to de-gliderise me. At first, I was kicking the Auster's rudder pedals all over the shop and the Auster had an extremely sensitive rudder. But apart from that the overall experience of flying power was not too dissimilar to gliding so I learned power more quickly than someone new to flying ab-initio.
The gliders I flew at Dunstable were the Slingsby T21, (known to the ATC, I believe, by the name Sedbergh,) and the Kirby Prefect. Both of these were primary gliders of a fairly early vintage. As such they had an angle of descent that would hardly be acceptable today. The average flight, unless you were lucky enough to catch a thermal straight off the winch, was about 6 minutes. So during the course of a week's course you did quite a few take-offs and landings. You could obtain the most important advantages of gliding to subsequent power flying within the space of a week's course.
But that was in the sixties. The present day newcomer to gliding, I believe, gets to fly aircraft that have a vastly better angle of glide, so that more instruction in things other than circuits and landing can be squeezed into each flight. This means fewer take-offs and landings. So I imagine today you would possibly need to glide for perhaps much of a summer season to gain the same number of landings and hence the same amount of 'forced landing' experience.
Regards,
BP.
The instructor said "right, you already know how to fly, so all I need to tell you is that it's a bit sensitive in pitch compared to what you're used to".
I've seen many power pilots genuinely surprised when I ask them to roll into a turn without using the rudder and then seeing the nose yaw 30 degrees the other way.
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Of course you found it easier and quicker than an ab initio as you had more experience flying than someone with none.
It is not in doubt that learning to fly something will give you a better start when learning to fly something else however to mandate it for all pilots is silly.
Any properly trainined PPL holder will be looking for a field at all times that is basic Threat and Error Management.
It is not in doubt that learning to fly something will give you a better start when learning to fly something else however to mandate it for all pilots is silly.
Any properly trainined PPL holder will be looking for a field at all times that is basic Threat and Error Management.
Thing & myself know each other, I agree with thing.
I still fly both disciplines now.
When learning to fly ppl in 2009, my instructor who was 22 at the time, after the first instructional flight, said I was the easiest student he's ever had. Solo in ppl after 5 hours instruction, skills test done 37 hours total ppl flying & passed! (10 hours credited from Gliding towards my ppl licence for full FCL)
Also just to add, us ppl flying glider pilots, also look for the areas to avoid near thermals & clouds where gliders are likely to be flying! The number of times I have been P2 With friends flying & had to point out gliders they haven't even seen!
Fly safe.
I still fly both disciplines now.
When learning to fly ppl in 2009, my instructor who was 22 at the time, after the first instructional flight, said I was the easiest student he's ever had. Solo in ppl after 5 hours instruction, skills test done 37 hours total ppl flying & passed! (10 hours credited from Gliding towards my ppl licence for full FCL)
Also just to add, us ppl flying glider pilots, also look for the areas to avoid near thermals & clouds where gliders are likely to be flying! The number of times I have been P2 With friends flying & had to point out gliders they haven't even seen!
Fly safe.
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It is not in doubt that learning to fly something will give you a better start when learning to fly something else
. Some people would vehementley disagree with that opinion. I don't personally, I agree with you.I would also agree with 7of 9 in that glider pilots who fly powered as well (or the other way around if you prefer) tend to be better at spotting likely places where gliders are liable to be, not through any superior intellectual powers or piloting skill, just experience. No great surprise there either you may say, but it all adds to the 'fly safe' mantra.
Any properly trainined PPL holder will be looking for a field at all times
Edit: Of course I'm not saying that all GA pilots don't keep a weather eye out for handy fields. Maybe it's just the mates I fly with.
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Of course I'm not saying that all GA pilots don't keep a weather eye out for handy fields.
(1) Set up a circuit.
(2) Look around.
(3) Work out which field you're going to end up in.
(4) Tell the instructor that was the one you were aiming at in the first place.
A slight mind set change is needed, and isn't necessarily always that easy to acquire, when flying in less hospitable territory. People whose initial training was on Vancouver Island are probably better at it.
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To answer the OP's question.
All things considered, yes I believe learning how to fly gliders first makes for better powered airplane flying.
Now I have a question.
What is " basic threat and error management. "
All things considered, yes I believe learning how to fly gliders first makes for better powered airplane flying.
that is basic Threat and Error Management.
What is " basic threat and error management. "
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I well remember, when I first returned to powered flying after a break of many years, being told off for allowing the Pa28 in which I was being instructed to drift up or down. The instructor put this down purely to my failing to position the control column appropriately to remain level while I was able, by reading the clouds and the landscape, to see that we were in fact flying through rising or sinking air-masses.
I did, however, have a young instructor flummoxed one day in a PA38 of all things. I'd left my biennial too late to get my usual aeros guy for a session in our Chipmunk so did it with a school instructor in that Tomahawk. Not being aerobatic (the Tommy or the instructor) I decided some instrument flying practice would be a useful way to spend the hour.
Off we went, charts in the windows blocking my outside view, to do some climbs, descents, turns, combinations of these, etc, all with me on instruments. After a while I found I couldn't maintain straight and level. I had the correct power set, the correct speed trimmed, but we were going down. I pointed this out to the instructor and he couldn't explain it. So I removed the chart and had a look outside.
Upwind of us was a socking big North Wales hill. We were in lee-side sink. The instructor had never heard of it!
I am an active powered airplane pilot, an active glider pilot and an active powered airplane instructor so I think I can offer some informed comments
First several post already seem infused with the "Glider pilots are inherently superior to powered airplane pilots" hubris that is unfortunately both disappointing and IMO largely unwarranted.
One big myth is that glider pilots are going to be instant masters of the PFL. My experience has not demonstrated that at all. Glider pilots are not inititially well prepared to deal with the challenges of glide path control in the PFL case because they are used to having such huge control over their glidepath. You can get well away from the optimum flight path in a glider and still fix it in ways that are impossible in a gliding powered airplane. Also the speeds the powered airplane will fly can be up to twice as fast as a glider approach speed so things happen a lot faster.
Glider pilots learn to adapt of course, but proficency will often take about the same amount of practice as someone who has never flown a glider.
However that been said I do think there are good reasons to start with a glider license.
First learning on the glider will concentrate on the pure stick and rudder foundation skills without the distraction of a panel full of instruments and managing the engine. Mastering those foundation skills will serve you well in what ever you end up flying.
Second glider instructors are held near the top of the glider community in terms of status. Powered flying however is the exact opposite. They are often low timers putting in time until a "real" job is available. So the chance of getting a very good introduction to general foundation flying skills is greater in gliding.
First several post already seem infused with the "Glider pilots are inherently superior to powered airplane pilots" hubris that is unfortunately both disappointing and IMO largely unwarranted.
One big myth is that glider pilots are going to be instant masters of the PFL. My experience has not demonstrated that at all. Glider pilots are not inititially well prepared to deal with the challenges of glide path control in the PFL case because they are used to having such huge control over their glidepath. You can get well away from the optimum flight path in a glider and still fix it in ways that are impossible in a gliding powered airplane. Also the speeds the powered airplane will fly can be up to twice as fast as a glider approach speed so things happen a lot faster.
Glider pilots learn to adapt of course, but proficency will often take about the same amount of practice as someone who has never flown a glider.
However that been said I do think there are good reasons to start with a glider license.
First learning on the glider will concentrate on the pure stick and rudder foundation skills without the distraction of a panel full of instruments and managing the engine. Mastering those foundation skills will serve you well in what ever you end up flying.
Second glider instructors are held near the top of the glider community in terms of status. Powered flying however is the exact opposite. They are often low timers putting in time until a "real" job is available. So the chance of getting a very good introduction to general foundation flying skills is greater in gliding.
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First several post already seem infused with the "Glider pilots are inherently superior to powered airplane pilots" hubris that is unfortunately both disappointing and IMO largely unwarranted.
Second glider instructors are held near the top of the glider community in terms of status. Powered flying however is the exact opposite.
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Threat and Error Management is generally regarded as the overall competency required in order to operate an aircraft safely, at least in the jet world. It's a great tool if used properly.
Anticipate threats, recognise errors and recover to safe flight.
Anticipate threats, recognise errors and recover to safe flight.
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Anticipate threats, recognise errors and recover to safe flight.
BPF,
Great post.
SSD,
The same thing happened to me, on instruments in a Chipmunk, west of Shawbury. Full power, 70 kts, climbing attitude and we were going down at 200' per minute. My instructor was laughing his socks off - he knew what was happening.
We were about 15 nm downwind of the beginning of the Welsh hills, but there was a weak wave, with completely laminar flow.
Great post.
SSD,
The same thing happened to me, on instruments in a Chipmunk, west of Shawbury. Full power, 70 kts, climbing attitude and we were going down at 200' per minute. My instructor was laughing his socks off - he knew what was happening.
We were about 15 nm downwind of the beginning of the Welsh hills, but there was a weak wave, with completely laminar flow.