Witnessing a crash
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Few years back, I was at the hold after a short visit to Stapleford. When we landed, we had been warned there was a tailwind component (why we weren't landing the other way, I don't know) and I had been surprised by the effect. Anyway, similar warning went out to an AA5 on short finals. As I watched him sail overhead, I just knew it wasn't going to make it. Despite this, he landed way down the runway and tried to stop...and then tried to go-round..but failed and ended up hopping over a hedge and collapsing the castoring nose-wheel. All managed to evacuate OK but it brought home to me the very different feeling that a 'slight' tailwind component brings when it hasn't been experienced before
You will get them all the time or be offered a runway with a tailwind tailwind component! As long as its within the manual limits and the runway is long enough take it why not?
All you have displayed is a very incompetent pilot flying an AA5 sorry to say that but its fact
Would i want someone I cared about flying with a pilot like that? No thank you
Pace
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tailwind of about 5 knots
I had my Sony Air 7 with me. I heard ATC asking the pilot whether he preferred a straight-in with a 5 kt tailwind or whether he wanted to fly a normal circuit.
Obviously he could save a couple of minutes' fuel by accepting the tailwind, so that's what he did.
"He didn't half bang it onto the runway and then slam on the anchors," she said.
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GTW
Was that in the days when there was a GA Light aircraft park along a side taxiway
Luton for airlines is fairly short at best of times but for a piston single massive and the pilots will bang it on the numbers and go for full reverse thrust.
Was that such a Jet with the tailwind or a light single aircraft? If a light single aircraft then there are some pretty bad pilots around who shouldn't be flying if they cannot land with 5 KTS especially for a light single and a huge runway like Luton?
Pace
Was that in the days when there was a GA Light aircraft park along a side taxiway
Luton for airlines is fairly short at best of times but for a piston single massive and the pilots will bang it on the numbers and go for full reverse thrust.
Was that such a Jet with the tailwind or a light single aircraft? If a light single aircraft then there are some pretty bad pilots around who shouldn't be flying if they cannot land with 5 KTS especially for a light single and a huge runway like Luton?
Pace
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The danger of landing a tail wheel aeroplane downwind is the potential for loss of directional control as the airspeed falls faster than the ground speed on the roll out. That was my concern that day at Liverpool.
The only crash I've witnessed (& from a distance!) was an MEP on a training flight, AFAIK simulated single engine go-around. Got below Vmca with the inevitable consequences . Crashed in the clear zone beyond the end of the runway. Both occupants got out ok before the thing went up in flames and being in the States the airport was back up and running after a quarter of an hour. No fuss.
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Lazerdog's post struck a chord with me. About 12 years ago I witnessed a fully-loaded C172 stall and crash after take-off. I've described some of the circumstances in an earlier PPRuNe post but the thing that stays with me is the terrible 'whump' as the aircraft hit the ground.
One of the hardest things at the time was needing to break through the optimism bias of many people. The aircraft was almost below a tree-line at the the time and, while I was quite sure what I'd seen and heard, I was surprised at the push-back by the local club management. Mercifully, it was all instantaneous and, in retrospect, a short delay in locating the crash was irrelevant. But if you find yourself in this position, you may find you have to thump the table hard to get some action. One of the accident investigators later told me that this is a very common observation.
As Lazerdog hints the effect on witnesses, while trivial compared to that on the occupants and their families, does linger a bit. I was grumpy for six months or so after the crash mainly, I think, because the accident was avoidable and because it was a hard to watch the world (including pilots) be cursorily dismissive of an accident where 4 people died.
Interestingly enough, while it made me consider carefully relevant factors such as take off configuration, apparent slip and skid with a strong wind near the ground, etc it never affected my desire to fly. Indeed, as in so many other trials we navigate, I suspect the joy we pilots get from flying is a powerful recovery aid.
One of the hardest things at the time was needing to break through the optimism bias of many people. The aircraft was almost below a tree-line at the the time and, while I was quite sure what I'd seen and heard, I was surprised at the push-back by the local club management. Mercifully, it was all instantaneous and, in retrospect, a short delay in locating the crash was irrelevant. But if you find yourself in this position, you may find you have to thump the table hard to get some action. One of the accident investigators later told me that this is a very common observation.
As Lazerdog hints the effect on witnesses, while trivial compared to that on the occupants and their families, does linger a bit. I was grumpy for six months or so after the crash mainly, I think, because the accident was avoidable and because it was a hard to watch the world (including pilots) be cursorily dismissive of an accident where 4 people died.
Interestingly enough, while it made me consider carefully relevant factors such as take off configuration, apparent slip and skid with a strong wind near the ground, etc it never affected my desire to fly. Indeed, as in so many other trials we navigate, I suspect the joy we pilots get from flying is a powerful recovery aid.
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Tecman.... Agreed. I think we need to learn from what we witness and what we are taught. Coordinated turns when you get low or slow or both is something that first crash ingrained in me. I did a lot of mountain flying in the past and I still remember my instructor saying "keep one wing in the shade", meaning fly close to the canyon sides so you can execute a 180 when required, and I have been there. I also had a seat rail latch break on rotation on a Cessna 182 and just let the airplane fly itself to a safe altitude before I tried to do anything. (Those latches have killed dozens in -182's) Same instructor had told me that "An airplane will fly itself unless you screw it up", which is more good advice and helped me on the day the seat latch put me 20 inches from the yoke. Always remember that airspeed is your friend, and if you lose an engine on take off, a very strong push is usually required before you can look for that golf course or before you decide which engine just bought it.
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I was very near a high performance taidragger that was being demonstrated by the pilot, the aircraft made a steep climb and at about 250 ft stalled and started to enter a spin, the aircraft hit the ground and a parked aircraft and burst into flames. I don't think any one could have survived that crash. I and several other bystanders had to restrain a man who had been so near the crash that he had suffered very bad burns but was wandering about in a semi dazed state walking away from the accident site ( and the rapidly approaching ambulance ).
Between the bystanders we managed to get the guy into the care of an ambulance crew quite quickly.
On the whole a terrible day, it made me much more considered about the way I fly aircraft.
Between the bystanders we managed to get the guy into the care of an ambulance crew quite quickly.
On the whole a terrible day, it made me much more considered about the way I fly aircraft.
The Original Whirly
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At Welshpool Airfield one day, many years ago...
A few of us were watching a microlight pilot take off, a student who'd just landed at Welshpool on a solo landaway. He must have been at about 1000 ft when there was a loud bang, then silence. We saw him turn 90 degrees and start descending. We could see approximately where he would have landed, so three of us joined the airfield owner in his Landrover and headed in that direction. Parked car, scaled a fence, reached microlight in field. He'd done very well, it looked a perfect field, but he was unlucky enough to hit a hidden ditch in the long grass, and the aircraft turned over. He was alright, but very disorientated, and had no recollection of what had happened. We all helped carry him out to the vehicle, and if I recall rightly, someone drove him to hospital. I can't remember the details of the outcome, but I believe he was OK.
As someone (Mary?) said earlier on, even the best pilot can't see a hidden ditch. This chap did very well, particularly for a student.
On where to land, I vaguely remember a story - true I believe - of a pilot who had engine failure over New York. No fields of course, so he flew through the window of a skyscraper. He took the wings off, but landed safely, and was uninjured enough to walk to the ambulance. If that's true, wow!
A few of us were watching a microlight pilot take off, a student who'd just landed at Welshpool on a solo landaway. He must have been at about 1000 ft when there was a loud bang, then silence. We saw him turn 90 degrees and start descending. We could see approximately where he would have landed, so three of us joined the airfield owner in his Landrover and headed in that direction. Parked car, scaled a fence, reached microlight in field. He'd done very well, it looked a perfect field, but he was unlucky enough to hit a hidden ditch in the long grass, and the aircraft turned over. He was alright, but very disorientated, and had no recollection of what had happened. We all helped carry him out to the vehicle, and if I recall rightly, someone drove him to hospital. I can't remember the details of the outcome, but I believe he was OK.
As someone (Mary?) said earlier on, even the best pilot can't see a hidden ditch. This chap did very well, particularly for a student.
On where to land, I vaguely remember a story - true I believe - of a pilot who had engine failure over New York. No fields of course, so he flew through the window of a skyscraper. He took the wings off, but landed safely, and was uninjured enough to walk to the ambulance. If that's true, wow!
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Witnessing a Crash
A few years ago I witnessed a mid-air collision when a Cessna 150 doing a touch and go hit a flexwing microlight at about 400 feet after takeoff. I was downwind at the time and watched as the Cessna (2nd solo after 1st solo an hour earlier) flew into the back of the flexwing which had taken off a few moments before. One wing separated from the Cessna and it spun to the ground. The flexwing fluttered to the ground.
I could almost hear the pilot's instructors voice - "Watch your airspeed", and I'm sure that was what the pilot was doing, at the expense of looking out of the window.
The pilot died, but incredibly the occupants of the flexwing, which fluttered more slowly to the ground, escaped with a broken ankle, cuts and bruises.
I hope I never see anything like that again.
I could almost hear the pilot's instructors voice - "Watch your airspeed", and I'm sure that was what the pilot was doing, at the expense of looking out of the window.
The pilot died, but incredibly the occupants of the flexwing, which fluttered more slowly to the ground, escaped with a broken ankle, cuts and bruises.
I hope I never see anything like that again.
Luton for airlines is fairly short at best of times .... and the pilots will bang it on the numbers and go for full reverse thrust.
The intended touchdown point for medium jets is 1000 ft from the landing threshold, for widebodies it's 1500ft. If some crews "bang it on the numbers" they are risking a close encounter with the runway lip - exactly what the planned touchdown point is intended to avoid.
I think I have mentioned this before but one of my "witness" experiences was a glider crash. I was acting as "midfield bat" when they launched a Tutor single seat glider into a very strong wind. The glider climbed steeply to about 100ft and then rolled inverted and dived into the ground.
As I ran towards it I was aware that I was likely to be the first to arrive on scene and dreaded what I would find. I looked into the wreckage and, to my amazement, there was no sign of the pilot. I looked around and there he was sitting on the ground, apparently unhurt but looking very green.
I have witnessed four glider crashes, one fatal, but this was the only one in which I was involved as a witness.
As I ran towards it I was aware that I was likely to be the first to arrive on scene and dreaded what I would find. I looked into the wreckage and, to my amazement, there was no sign of the pilot. I looked around and there he was sitting on the ground, apparently unhurt but looking very green.
I have witnessed four glider crashes, one fatal, but this was the only one in which I was involved as a witness.
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Any parent has experienced accidents when the kids are growing up. You don't scream and shout and run about. You get calm and quiet and assess the injury...does the kid need a doctor or the hospital? Then into the car and off to the hospital PDQ without waiting for a second opinion....this was way out in the countryside.
While organising trips for our Oxford Ice Skating Club, we would take a couple of coaches to Solihull, Southampton, or Bristol. Ice hurts if you fall over. I grew quite skilled being able to tell from the look on his face whether or not we had to stop at the hospital!
Same thing when a good friend hurt his back in a glider, you could tell by the look on his face better not to move him. These days we require impact cushions in the gliders, it makes quite a difference to have this protection installed and nobody should fly without making sure the impact cushion is in place. An ounce of prevention...
While organising trips for our Oxford Ice Skating Club, we would take a couple of coaches to Solihull, Southampton, or Bristol. Ice hurts if you fall over. I grew quite skilled being able to tell from the look on his face whether or not we had to stop at the hospital!
Same thing when a good friend hurt his back in a glider, you could tell by the look on his face better not to move him. These days we require impact cushions in the gliders, it makes quite a difference to have this protection installed and nobody should fly without making sure the impact cushion is in place. An ounce of prevention...
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Kenparry
Bang it on the numbers is a descriptive phrase meaning that airlines with all the inertia cannot afford to hold off and do literally bang it on the numbers. For Airlines Luton is short.
Consider Heathrow is 12900 feet long
7000 is not a Heathrow ))Where on earth do you get your 1000 feet and 1500 feet from?
A typical picture above clearly showing typical tyre marks
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Mar 2015 at 01:17.
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7000' is longer than chicago midway (KMDW) orange county santa ana(KSNA), Washington National (KDCA) and many other runways used by jet airliners in the USA. And when you add in low altitude maneuvering required at some airports, I would love to have 7000'.
Kenparry is quite right in saying the 1000' fixed distance marker is a good point for touchdown as he describes and is APPROXIMATELY where the ILS Glideslope intercepts the runway. Pace, I don't know where you get your ideas.
1500' is usually used for widebody aircraft or other larger/longer types. This has to do with eye height and landing gear position.
I've never even heard of Luton, but the picture looks quite nice with all that pretty grass. Runway number seems on the small side.
ON THE NUMBERS can mean putting the wheels right where 19L is. But only rarely would an airliner intentionally put it ON THE NUMBERS.
PACE mentions inertia. Well, there is quite a bit of inertia, but the brakes (wheel brakes) on an airliner are quite strong compared to those of a C152.
PACE, you also ask where KENPARRY got that 1000' 1500' bit, well , since you are british, why not read "Handling the Big Jets' by DP Davies and explains just what KENPARRY has been talking about. And DP is british.
Kenparry is quite right in saying the 1000' fixed distance marker is a good point for touchdown as he describes and is APPROXIMATELY where the ILS Glideslope intercepts the runway. Pace, I don't know where you get your ideas.
1500' is usually used for widebody aircraft or other larger/longer types. This has to do with eye height and landing gear position.
I've never even heard of Luton, but the picture looks quite nice with all that pretty grass. Runway number seems on the small side.
ON THE NUMBERS can mean putting the wheels right where 19L is. But only rarely would an airliner intentionally put it ON THE NUMBERS.
PACE mentions inertia. Well, there is quite a bit of inertia, but the brakes (wheel brakes) on an airliner are quite strong compared to those of a C152.
PACE, you also ask where KENPARRY got that 1000' 1500' bit, well , since you are british, why not read "Handling the Big Jets' by DP Davies and explains just what KENPARRY has been talking about. And DP is british.
I have witnessed 3 crashes
The first was a C 172 that touchdown nose wheel first and then continued bouncing until after the 4th nose wheel first hit, the nose wheel strut broke off. The aircraft was also quite crooked at this time so it departed the side of the runway and ground looped when a wing tip dug in. Nobody hurt but the aircraft was wrecked. The wind was right down the runway at about 5 kts
The second was when a pilot landed his Arrow wheels up. He had not flown for several years but declined several suggestions that he should do a bit of dual with an instructor.
The third involved a low level EFATO in a C 185. The engine failed without enough runway to stop. It went off the end of the runway and then groundlooped with heavy damage. The engine failed because the fuel was turned off and the fuel in the collector tank was exhausted.
3 wrecked airplanes that were 100 %, totally, absolutely preventable......
The first was a C 172 that touchdown nose wheel first and then continued bouncing until after the 4th nose wheel first hit, the nose wheel strut broke off. The aircraft was also quite crooked at this time so it departed the side of the runway and ground looped when a wing tip dug in. Nobody hurt but the aircraft was wrecked. The wind was right down the runway at about 5 kts
The second was when a pilot landed his Arrow wheels up. He had not flown for several years but declined several suggestions that he should do a bit of dual with an instructor.
The third involved a low level EFATO in a C 185. The engine failed without enough runway to stop. It went off the end of the runway and then groundlooped with heavy damage. The engine failed because the fuel was turned off and the fuel in the collector tank was exhausted.
3 wrecked airplanes that were 100 %, totally, absolutely preventable......
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big pistons
wow. you are right on of course. I realize that arrows USE to have automatic landing gear extension and that some legal thing has changed that. But it is amazing. Was the arrow crack up before that automatic extension was disabled?
wow. you are right on of course. I realize that arrows USE to have automatic landing gear extension and that some legal thing has changed that. But it is amazing. Was the arrow crack up before that automatic extension was disabled?
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Most of the accidents I have witnessed have been minor, with one exception, which put me off airshows forever. In the early '80's several of us flew to Oshkosh for a day. A Siai Marchetti pilot was demonstrating an SF260. The announcer said that the pilot would now demonstrate a spin. He did. The problem was that he was only a few hundred feet up. He entered, got the rotation stopped, pulled up, and slammed into the runway right in front of me, going down fast in a level attitude. He killed himself. The flying stopped for the day, and it was hours before the runway was cleared at the end of the day so we could fly home. What a waste.
In my capacity as a volunteer firefighter, I've had to attend many crashes in our area. I've had to help lift two dead friends out of their crashed planes over the years - you can't not, they're your friends.....
It reminds you to fly well though...
In my capacity as a volunteer firefighter, I've had to attend many crashes in our area. I've had to help lift two dead friends out of their crashed planes over the years - you can't not, they're your friends.....
It reminds you to fly well though...