Why is landing the bloody plane so hard?!
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Got to admit without wanting to enter the debate with the likes of Chuck and Step who are far more experienced than I will ever be that most of my landings are more or less power off. I always have this concern that I want to make the field if the donk stops, especially given some of the approaches to some fields that we have here in UK, think about approaching Sandtoft on 23..plus I spent my formative flying years flying gliders so I guess the habit has stuck.
If you are a bit high and at idle you can always slip it in, I take it we all know how to do that. Given of course we observe a/c limitations as to slip and the amount of flap selected, I'm thinking older 172s with 40 degrees available.
Edit: I don't think talking about power off and slip landings etc is doing the OP any good at all!
If you are a bit high and at idle you can always slip it in, I take it we all know how to do that. Given of course we observe a/c limitations as to slip and the amount of flap selected, I'm thinking older 172s with 40 degrees available.
Edit: I don't think talking about power off and slip landings etc is doing the OP any good at all!
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I'm only half way through my PPL but i thought i'd post with a little of my experience since i'm doing it at the moment! I don't find landing hard, in fact i really enjoy it! Sometimes it's the best part of flying!
Anyway, the first time i did circuits i was up for an hour and got 8 T+Gs and a landing. I greased every one of them! I got cocky.
The very next time we went up, i think i got maximum 4 actual contacts with the runway in the space of an hour, the rest were go-arounds. The 4 times i did touch terra firma, we're very hard and in one i came very close to stuffing it prop first into the runway. I found out how quick my instructor's reactions were that day!
We went back to basics and broke everything down along the lines of what everyone has already said (don't let it land, the point of flare etc) and i got the hang of it again.
Which brings me to the best thing i ever did for landing practice. My second session of flying circuits solo, i went up to practice the unusual landings (glide/flapless) and once i'd got a few dialled in i just started messing around!
I'm training at Prestwick which affords the luxury of a really long runway, so i tried landing with more and more power until i found the point at which it definitely wouldn't land (about 1900rpm in the AA5A i'm flying), holding it just a few inches off the runway. It really gives you a feel for ground effect and gives you more time to get used to what things look like that close to the runway.
After that i started trying to land it on the mainwheels and give just enough power to keep the nosewheel a little off the ground before taking off again. (I thought i might get a discount on my T+Gs since only 2/3rds of the wheels were touching the runway.
)
Anyway, don't take my advice without speaking to your instructor first but i found it really valuable and i'm quite comfortable now with accurately putting it where i want it.
Anyway, the first time i did circuits i was up for an hour and got 8 T+Gs and a landing. I greased every one of them! I got cocky.
The very next time we went up, i think i got maximum 4 actual contacts with the runway in the space of an hour, the rest were go-arounds. The 4 times i did touch terra firma, we're very hard and in one i came very close to stuffing it prop first into the runway. I found out how quick my instructor's reactions were that day!
We went back to basics and broke everything down along the lines of what everyone has already said (don't let it land, the point of flare etc) and i got the hang of it again.
Which brings me to the best thing i ever did for landing practice. My second session of flying circuits solo, i went up to practice the unusual landings (glide/flapless) and once i'd got a few dialled in i just started messing around!
I'm training at Prestwick which affords the luxury of a really long runway, so i tried landing with more and more power until i found the point at which it definitely wouldn't land (about 1900rpm in the AA5A i'm flying), holding it just a few inches off the runway. It really gives you a feel for ground effect and gives you more time to get used to what things look like that close to the runway.
After that i started trying to land it on the mainwheels and give just enough power to keep the nosewheel a little off the ground before taking off again. (I thought i might get a discount on my T+Gs since only 2/3rds of the wheels were touching the runway.
)Anyway, don't take my advice without speaking to your instructor first but i found it really valuable and i'm quite comfortable now with accurately putting it where i want it.
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I enjoyed the post about the glider pilot vs the airbus pilot.
what the honorable poster didn't mention was that the glider pilot will occasionally land off the airport, rarely if ever flys on instruments or does instrument approaches, or actually gets people from A to B.
Engine power is not a ''crutch''. A normal plane couldn't take off without the help of the engine. Certainly once "UP" it can come "Down" without the use of engine power. A power off landing is only one of the tools in the toolbox of the pilot. All sorts of landings should be studied, including power off. But to teach landings, to the original poster, be sure to study power on landings too.
Some speak of "losing the donk". Well, if you lose it, point the nose down to maintain speed and land where you have PRE SELECTED in the case of loss of engine.
But these same people don't fly at the airports where you have to get in line for landing behind others. Or sidestep to another runway upon reasonable request by ATC. Taken to extreme, the power off crowd will be hard pressed to be precise in the other aspects of flying.
Engine failures in real life rarely happen at the exact point you are always practicing for. It comes as a surprise (usually). And you make do with what is available at that moment.
Even in jets, we practice all engine out landings, in the sim. The passengers really don't like being guinea pigs in the real plane.
So brave pilots, use all of your tools, but know how to use them all.
what the honorable poster didn't mention was that the glider pilot will occasionally land off the airport, rarely if ever flys on instruments or does instrument approaches, or actually gets people from A to B.
Engine power is not a ''crutch''. A normal plane couldn't take off without the help of the engine. Certainly once "UP" it can come "Down" without the use of engine power. A power off landing is only one of the tools in the toolbox of the pilot. All sorts of landings should be studied, including power off. But to teach landings, to the original poster, be sure to study power on landings too.
Some speak of "losing the donk". Well, if you lose it, point the nose down to maintain speed and land where you have PRE SELECTED in the case of loss of engine.
But these same people don't fly at the airports where you have to get in line for landing behind others. Or sidestep to another runway upon reasonable request by ATC. Taken to extreme, the power off crowd will be hard pressed to be precise in the other aspects of flying.
Engine failures in real life rarely happen at the exact point you are always practicing for. It comes as a surprise (usually). And you make do with what is available at that moment.
Even in jets, we practice all engine out landings, in the sim. The passengers really don't like being guinea pigs in the real plane.
So brave pilots, use all of your tools, but know how to use them all.
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But these same people don't fly at the airports where you have to get in line for landing behind others.
Can't disagree with what you are saying but this isn't the heavy metal forum. Planning a landing for a 150 and an A380 are different things. I don't buy the 'all aircraft are the same' argument.
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How awful for poor naval aviators for they won't get signed off by chuck as they come in with power and ADD power on touchdown in case of a bolter?
Nowhere have I said that landing power off is of any more importance than any other type of approach and landing, what I have said is if a student can not comfortably do such an approach and landing I will not sign them off.
I have learned a new word here though but never heard " bolter " used in flight training and I have worked a whole lot in the flight training sector of aviation.
This is the private pilot forum and discussions about how to fly jet aircraft has no real value for the average private pilot.
However between you and I, I worked for Airbus Industries for two years and was trained in their test flying department in Toulouse France by all of their test pilots so I think I understand the use of power in jet aircraft.
With regard to soft field landings and the use of power, somewhere in your comments I believe you claimed you must use power.
Really?
I flew DC3's in the high arctic on wheel skis for many years including thousands of off airport landings and quite often did " Soft field " type landings at zero thrust at touch down and the landings were exactly what I wanted.
There is no one size fits all in flying airplanes, you must however be very skilled in every aspect of airplane handling of which power off landing is only one technique.
With regard to teaching on amphibians. One of the most lucrative of my training services was doing type ratings in the PBY.
During the water training portion of the training the students first lesson that had to be mastered was consecutive three minute, three hundred feet high circuits with all landings being performed with the throttles closed from 200 feet above the water.
Once they were comfortable with that we moved on to more demanding flying.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 5th Mar 2015 at 16:47.
I just do it, it seems to work, wouldn't have a clue how to describe what I do.
It took me a while to develop a decent instructional technique. Incidentally, I often feel that I learn more than my students when instructing.
Concerning the power-off, power-on debate, when I learned to fly (back in the dark ages in the UK - my whole PPL course was non-radio!), I was taught to close the throttle on base leg, when I thought I could make it and then fly a glide approach. I still do that on occasion, for practice, if I'm at a quiet airport.
Mary's flight with the journalist in a motorglider, reminds me of a similar experience. I once took an ag-pilot for a ride. I briefed him about shutting down when at height and he said "I'm going to find that very difficult. In my business, if the engine stops, you are probably going to die."
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I am reluctant to give flight training techniques on the internet by actually describing how I personally do it because without one on one contact I have no idea who I am communicating with.
...........................
However.
...........................
With regard to teaching height judgement I have found the students will get the picture faster and more precise using the following method.
From one hundred feet I count down the height in this manner.
One hundred feet.
Fifty feet
Forty feet
Thirty feet
Twenty feet...flare now.
Fifteen feet
Ten feet
Five feet hold off
Four feet
Three feet
Two feet
One foot
Contact
I teach them where to look at each phase of the flight so they will be looking in the correct area during each phase......
.....At the far end of the runway is never one of the points....
Over the past sixty years of teaching I find that method really takes all the magic out of the equation and they " Get " the picture.
There you go gang, any questions?
...........................
However.
...........................
With regard to teaching height judgement I have found the students will get the picture faster and more precise using the following method.
From one hundred feet I count down the height in this manner.
One hundred feet.
Fifty feet
Forty feet
Thirty feet
Twenty feet...flare now.
Fifteen feet
Ten feet
Five feet hold off
Four feet
Three feet
Two feet
One foot
Contact
I teach them where to look at each phase of the flight so they will be looking in the correct area during each phase......
.....At the far end of the runway is never one of the points....
Over the past sixty years of teaching I find that method really takes all the magic out of the equation and they " Get " the picture.
There you go gang, any questions?
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In a funny sort of way any landing is a powered approach !
In a single engine aircraft you have two sources of energy the on tap energy from the engine but also the potential energy in the airframe!
I like to think of it as two power levers the throttle but also the column which gives access to the potential energy in the airframe
Pitch forward and you tap into that energy pitch further forward and you tap into even more of that energy so it's as much as a throttle as the engine throttle!
So even in a glide approach in reality it's a powered approach but just using a different source of energy
Whether a glider or an aircraft with its own piwer unit flying is all about energy management and hence why it's important to be able to play between one and the other as needs be
Hence why I never like the pitch for speed or power for speed debates as really it's energy management
Pace
In a single engine aircraft you have two sources of energy the on tap energy from the engine but also the potential energy in the airframe!
I like to think of it as two power levers the throttle but also the column which gives access to the potential energy in the airframe
Pitch forward and you tap into that energy pitch further forward and you tap into even more of that energy so it's as much as a throttle as the engine throttle!
So even in a glide approach in reality it's a powered approach but just using a different source of energy
Whether a glider or an aircraft with its own piwer unit flying is all about energy management and hence why it's important to be able to play between one and the other as needs be
Hence why I never like the pitch for speed or power for speed debates as really it's energy management
Pace
Yes, and a glider has a lot of glidepath control by use of the airbrakes. Rather like a power lever, except never enough for a go around on a flat site. We did do go arounds at the Long Mynd on a west wind day when I flew gliders there, but I agree this isn't a usual situation.
Pace has made a very valid point. I envisage this as like having a scarf round the back of your neck. Hold each end in one hand (without crossing your arm or wrapping it round your neck......you don't want to strangle yourself) Now pull down with your right hand and what happens? Your left hand goes up, yes? So you can maintain a chosen glide path in the same way, more engine, less pitch down and vice versa, or steepen or flatten your glidepath by altering your power setting and attitude.
The trick with actually landing the aircraft is to throw it at the ground and not quite miss
The clever part involves doing it in the right place and in a way that suits the type of aircraft and runway. For the OP, this probably means standardisation of as many parameters as possible until he develops a feel for what is happening. It will come, and it is true that practice as regularly as possible is a good way of getting this feel.
As for the 45 hour goal.... It is possible, but might not be desirable. The PPL has been described as a licence to learn. No reason not to get some of the learning first, you will need to spend the time and money at some point, whether before or after you get the piece of paper probably won't make any difference.
Pace has made a very valid point. I envisage this as like having a scarf round the back of your neck. Hold each end in one hand (without crossing your arm or wrapping it round your neck......you don't want to strangle yourself) Now pull down with your right hand and what happens? Your left hand goes up, yes? So you can maintain a chosen glide path in the same way, more engine, less pitch down and vice versa, or steepen or flatten your glidepath by altering your power setting and attitude.
The trick with actually landing the aircraft is to throw it at the ground and not quite miss
The clever part involves doing it in the right place and in a way that suits the type of aircraft and runway. For the OP, this probably means standardisation of as many parameters as possible until he develops a feel for what is happening. It will come, and it is true that practice as regularly as possible is a good way of getting this feel.
As for the 45 hour goal.... It is possible, but might not be desirable. The PPL has been described as a licence to learn. No reason not to get some of the learning first, you will need to spend the time and money at some point, whether before or after you get the piece of paper probably won't make any difference.
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dear chuck
many small planes use the power on touchdown for soft field landings. its even in their poh.
bolter is a navy term for carrier ops, and yes most private pilots won't land on carriers
but neither will they fly DC3s, jets or PBY Catalinas.
and saying where you worked means very little, as this is the internet. and we know what that means.
So, don't sign someone off without a 200' power off approach, FINE.
I wouldn't sign someone off without a power cut abeam the numbers on the downwind and making it.
Or demonstrating a normal, power on approach , touching down where you aimed.
Lots of things are required to be signed off. And power on approaches take as much skill as power off, IF NOT A LITTLE MORE.
many small planes use the power on touchdown for soft field landings. its even in their poh.
bolter is a navy term for carrier ops, and yes most private pilots won't land on carriers
but neither will they fly DC3s, jets or PBY Catalinas.
and saying where you worked means very little, as this is the internet. and we know what that means.
So, don't sign someone off without a 200' power off approach, FINE.
I wouldn't sign someone off without a power cut abeam the numbers on the downwind and making it.
Or demonstrating a normal, power on approach , touching down where you aimed.
Lots of things are required to be signed off. And power on approaches take as much skill as power off, IF NOT A LITTLE MORE.
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During the water training portion of the training the students first lesson that had to be mastered was ...
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Pprune degenerating into its finest, with the clique descending on one poor soul who dares speak heresy. Land with some power. Dear God. I am sure the OP is now TOTALLY clear on how to land his Catalina, or some carrier ops for that matter..
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Chuck Ellesworth, your countdown as you near the ground does worry me.
On getting to twenty feet, you say 'FLARE NOW!" oops! all at once? I would not want my student to yank it from approach to flare, that is recipe for a balloon and how! The FLARE is a thing of beauty and must not be rushed.
So raise the nose a bit, and WAIT. Then a bit more and wait. and again.
Until you are floating along nicely in level flight a few feet above terra firma. If the student is having problems, demonstrate, and demonstrate again. Some instructors do not sufficiently demonstrate, trying to save the student money by letting him try try again...
This works for me in a Cessna, a Piper, a Beachcraft, a floatplane, or a glider, and that's what I teach, see my post on the other thread about learning to land.
You all have experienced a balloon? havn't you? finding yourself at ten to twelve feet up and no flying speed left....painful impact may follow. Unless you are ready to go around instantly....or landing with power as recommended by some contributors.
India Four Two, it wasn't me flying with the journalist. However, Fantome gives good advice, warn your pax when about to do something interesting.
I had a nervous passenger once, and on approach in a rented C172 at Baton Rouge airport in Louisiana, was asked by the tower to expedite, as a Boeing was following. So I waited to dump flaps until about to FLARE, and the flaps DIDN'T WORK. I said "O ****", as one does, and landed with no flaps, no big deal, but my passenger on hearing these words, was convinced it was his last moment! Lesson learned. With a passenger on board, or lots of passengers, no matter the problem, the PILOT must maintain a supreme air of SERENE and UNTROUBLED competence.....
On getting to twenty feet, you say 'FLARE NOW!" oops! all at once? I would not want my student to yank it from approach to flare, that is recipe for a balloon and how! The FLARE is a thing of beauty and must not be rushed.
So raise the nose a bit, and WAIT. Then a bit more and wait. and again.
Until you are floating along nicely in level flight a few feet above terra firma. If the student is having problems, demonstrate, and demonstrate again. Some instructors do not sufficiently demonstrate, trying to save the student money by letting him try try again...
This works for me in a Cessna, a Piper, a Beachcraft, a floatplane, or a glider, and that's what I teach, see my post on the other thread about learning to land.
You all have experienced a balloon? havn't you? finding yourself at ten to twelve feet up and no flying speed left....painful impact may follow. Unless you are ready to go around instantly....or landing with power as recommended by some contributors.
India Four Two, it wasn't me flying with the journalist. However, Fantome gives good advice, warn your pax when about to do something interesting.
I had a nervous passenger once, and on approach in a rented C172 at Baton Rouge airport in Louisiana, was asked by the tower to expedite, as a Boeing was following. So I waited to dump flaps until about to FLARE, and the flaps DIDN'T WORK. I said "O ****", as one does, and landed with no flaps, no big deal, but my passenger on hearing these words, was convinced it was his last moment! Lesson learned. With a passenger on board, or lots of passengers, no matter the problem, the PILOT must maintain a supreme air of SERENE and UNTROUBLED competence.....
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and saying where you worked means very little, as this is the internet. and we know what that means.
I use my real name here on this forum and it would be stupid of me to claim something that was not true.
However using a make believe name would cast doubt on my credibility.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 5th Mar 2015 at 21:24.
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Chuck Ellesworth, your countdown as you near the ground does worry me.
On getting to twenty feet, you say 'FLARE NOW!" oops! all at once?
On getting to twenty feet, you say 'FLARE NOW!" oops! all at once?
Flare now at the twenty foot height is the point at which I teach them to start the transition from the approach attitude to the level attitude above the runway in a smooth change of the flight profile.......it is a timing command that allows them to smoothly change their flight path to level just above the runway and allow the airplane to settle towards the runway as speed and lift decay.
P.S. ::
I never raise my voice when teaching flying because it induces anxiety in the student.
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I said "O ****", as one does, and landed with no flaps, no big deal, but my passenger on hearing these words, was convinced it was his last moment!
"I'm likely to talk to myself, many pilots do that, it's a hangover from flying lessons. If I swear at myself don't worry about it too much, we're probably OK, it probably just means that I didn't do something quite as neatly as I would have liked."
and saying where you worked means very little, as this is the internet. and we know what that means
Chuck, I doubt he/she has any real experience.
PS: Should anyone doubt that I have an extensive aviation background PM me with your email and I'll swamp you with credentials.
(posted to pre-empt skyhighfallguy)