GPS, A bonus or a necessity?
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GPS, A bonus or a necessity?
Following from another thread, I thought the following comment was a sad indication of the capabilities of todays pilots
Having spent many years where GPS was not even an option I just wonder why some cannot manage without?
(I know some VORs are about to be withdrawn, but this is BEFORE that!)
I agree that IFR nav is ALMOST impossible without a GPS,
(I know some VORs are about to be withdrawn, but this is BEFORE that!)
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Given that BRNAV is now pretty much mandatory for all Eurocontrol enroute stuff, and that it is all but impossible (if not actually completely impossible) to comply without an IFR GPS, then it's a necessity, not a bonus.
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Amazing, anyone remember the days of trans-atlantic ops going A-B using high powered land based NDB's and NDB's on moored ships across the atlantic, and thats not in airliners but GA ferrying.
Given that BRNAV is now pretty much mandatory for all Eurocontrol enroute stuff, and that it is all but impossible (if not actually completely impossible) to comply without an IFR GPS, then it's a necessity, not a bonus.
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If you fly IFR in controlled airspace then to meet the requirements of BRNAV or PRNAV there's no practical alternative to an IFR certified GPS with an up to date database.
Routes are no longer mapped using ground based aids, a VOR is not a lot of help nor is a DME and an ADF is useful only for listening to the sports results.
Routes are no longer mapped using ground based aids, a VOR is not a lot of help nor is a DME and an ADF is useful only for listening to the sports results.
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I think that's a pretty inflammatory statement to be honest...
Do you actually fly IFR in CAS throughout Europe? If you do, could you please share how you do it without a GPS?
What happens (for example) when you get routed direct to a 5LNC waypoint 200nm away?
I'm going to put my neck on the line here and say that the bigger danger here is the people who are unwilling to accept that things have moved on.
Do you actually fly IFR in CAS throughout Europe? If you do, could you please share how you do it without a GPS?
What happens (for example) when you get routed direct to a 5LNC waypoint 200nm away?
I'm going to put my neck on the line here and say that the bigger danger here is the people who are unwilling to accept that things have moved on.
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If it is inflammatory it is probably because the initial statement was too sweeping - my flying in CAS is mostly done in a slightly bigger aircraft than fits into the GA category and of course there it is all done on GPS, in the UK I often fly outside CAS in an aircraft without GPS, I seem to manage this quite successfully, even inside CAS in the UK it can still be done, though you may need to turn down some clearances, thus disproving the premiss that to do so is ALMOST impossible, if the statement had said it was "almost impossible for flying across Europe in CAS" that would have got a different reaction!
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Foxmoth, I wonder how much IFR outside CAS you have done recently. Try doing it without ground based radio navaids, as some of us are regularly required to do.
The aviation world is a diverse one and things move on and change, not often for the better. There are, sadly, far fewer navaids than when I began using them almost forty years ago. There is also less radar cover, but that's a different issue.
The aviation world is a diverse one and things move on and change, not often for the better. There are, sadly, far fewer navaids than when I began using them almost forty years ago. There is also less radar cover, but that's a different issue.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 26th Feb 2015 at 07:59. Reason: Because I'm older than I remembered....
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... and the days are numbered for most of the few remaining ones.
Now is the time to embrace GPS, not stand on the sidelines accusing the people who do use it of being incompetent!
Anyone can, in about 30 seconds, come up with a handful of simple routes (OCAS if you like) that can no longer be achieved using ground based aids.
An IFR GPS is actually a very complex piece of kit with lots of hidden nuances. I don't understand why mastering that device is somehow seen as a lesser skill than using radio nav. It's certainly a heck of a lot more relevant these days!
Now is the time to embrace GPS, not stand on the sidelines accusing the people who do use it of being incompetent!
Anyone can, in about 30 seconds, come up with a handful of simple routes (OCAS if you like) that can no longer be achieved using ground based aids.
An IFR GPS is actually a very complex piece of kit with lots of hidden nuances. I don't understand why mastering that device is somehow seen as a lesser skill than using radio nav. It's certainly a heck of a lot more relevant these days!
My aircraft has no navaids apart from a compass. No transponder either.
It has a still air range of over 700nm though, making quite long over water flights possible. I wouldn't say GPS is either a bonus or a necessity. More of a Gift from God.
Just to clarify. I spent over 20 years flying with a chart and stopwatch before Xmas arrived, in the form of SkyDemon.
It has a still air range of over 700nm though, making quite long over water flights possible. I wouldn't say GPS is either a bonus or a necessity. More of a Gift from God.
Just to clarify. I spent over 20 years flying with a chart and stopwatch before Xmas arrived, in the form of SkyDemon.
Last edited by Flyingmac; 26th Feb 2015 at 07:53.
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NDB's on moored ships across the atlantic,
First, the Atlantic is pretty deep (3.3 km on average, according to Wikipedia) so anchoring is a major, major undertaking. And then you get the economic argument: Who is going to pay for all of this, including salaries of crews plus the infrastructure to bring them to the ships and back, fuel for the generators and whatnot. And it most be boring as hell for the crews.
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Foxmoth, I wonder how much IFR outside CAS you have done recently. Try doing it without ground based radio navaids, as some of us are regularly required to do.
I would be interested to know what flying you do where there are NO ground based aids available, I could see that being the case in somewhere like Canada, but even across Europe there are still plenty around ATM? - and of course when pilots started flying IFR it would mostly be done by dead reckoning with (if they were luck) a radio range at the destination - no GPS then!
Neither am I
on the sidelines accusing the people who do use it of being incompetent!
Last edited by foxmoth; 26th Feb 2015 at 09:35.
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I didn't actually say that I thought you were anti GPS.
But you wouldn't be able to safely and reliably do the job some of us are doing without it. You might try, but if you can't use beacons where there are no beacons! It's almost impossible to squeeze through some of the airspace gaps we are required to use, often on an ad hoc basis, at low levels, if you can't self navigate.
I see you have edited your post #16.
Try navigating under the London CTA, say from Biggin Hill to Barton.
But you wouldn't be able to safely and reliably do the job some of us are doing without it. You might try, but if you can't use beacons where there are no beacons! It's almost impossible to squeeze through some of the airspace gaps we are required to use, often on an ad hoc basis, at low levels, if you can't self navigate.
I see you have edited your post #16.
Try navigating under the London CTA, say from Biggin Hill to Barton.
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Try navigating under the London CTA, say from Biggin Hill to Barton.
As I said, it was the generalisation that IFR Nav is "almost impossible" without GPS that I object to, as in the example you give it makes it MUCH easier to have it, but fly say Goodwood to Sywell Via CPT and "almost impossible" becomes "piece of p!*s", and there are plenty of places that you can still fly that this applies to, so "almost impossible" for certain applications/routes, yes I agree, "almost impossible" in general - no.
Edited to add - even with GPS, which way would you get from S of the MAN TMA into Barton?
Last edited by foxmoth; 26th Feb 2015 at 10:36.
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Foxmoth,
I said "almost impossible' because i fly IFR around Glasgow and Edinburgh and there are some SIDs out for Glasgow that have waypoints that aren't on a radial from any nav aid so the only way of flying it is with a GPS.
I said "almost impossible' because i fly IFR around Glasgow and Edinburgh and there are some SIDs out for Glasgow that have waypoints that aren't on a radial from any nav aid so the only way of flying it is with a GPS.
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Looking at a GPS recording of my attempts to follow a VOR Radial, or magenta GPS line, they all turn out to be very wobbly lines.
On the other hand when flying with a GPS coupled auto-pilot the track is so much more of a straight line.
So maybe PPL navigation should be more concerned with how to program the auto-pilot for successful wobble free navigation. Also as NDB and VORs may soon to become obsolete, a new thinking on PPL training is required.
On the other hand when flying with a GPS coupled auto-pilot the track is so much more of a straight line.
So maybe PPL navigation should be more concerned with how to program the auto-pilot for successful wobble free navigation. Also as NDB and VORs may soon to become obsolete, a new thinking on PPL training is required.