buying a plane

[vandereydt]

Good afternoon all,

I am looking at the option of buying a plane. I hold a FAA PPL , working on my FAA IFR rating,and will convert those also to EASA.

Anyway, my mission is lots of cross country flying, both pleasure and business. In Europe.

Because of family size I d need a six seater.

Have been looking at young second hand planes, not many to find :-(

Was also thinking about the option of buying an "older" plane such as Bonanza, Baron, Saratoga, Cessna 321, 402 ...
And overhauling it, refurbishing, restoring , engines, panel, interior ...

I would like to hear your thoughts and ideas

Thanks

Ronny

[9 lives]

Ronny, I suggest you closely examine how often you would need to fly your entire family in a six place aircraft, I bet it's not that often. The cost to buy and operate a six place over a four or two place plane will be huge for the few times that you would actually need all those seats. You'll find you'd be better off with the four or two place, and rent big for the few times you need it. Trust me, if you choose to take a weather or mechanical delay at some remote place, you'll be VERY happy that the whole family is not with you! And then there's the one kid who forgot to go before takeoff....

I have a wife and four kids, and have only ever flown a maximum of five of us at once (in a borrowed 182RG) a couple of times. Honestly, though in 39 years of flying I have never had an accident, I still don't want all of my family in a plane with me - just my choice, having seen too many cases where it did not work out at all well.

Give a lot of thought to your mission profile, you might find that "the big trip" can be equally well accomplished with some EasyJet tickets in addition to your plane, and for a lot less money....

[Johnm]

Get a Cherokee six

[Katamarino]

The cost to buy and operate a six place over a four or two place plane will be huge for the few times that you would actually need all those seats. You'll find you'd be better off with the four or two place, and rent big for the few times you need it.

Renting a six seater in Europe will be extremely difficult. Few and far between.

[dirkdj]

Ronny,

I operate a six-seater since 1969. You can PM me with your mission profile, and I can suggest possible solutions. If you want to become an owner, best to buy your last aircraft first instead. A six seater is good for 4 adults or two adults with 4 kids maximum, unless you want to do day trips with little luggage.

Dirk

[Jan Olieslagers]

Renting a six seater in Europe will be extremely difficult. Few and far between.

There 's a nice one around here, N-reg too; I'm sure Ronny knows about it. If not, his PM is welcome.

[maxred]

Ronny, not wanting to be a spoiler, but, Step turn is right on the money here.

I have a wife and two kids, I have a beautiful Bonanza, and I have flown them about Europe on a number of occasions, however, my wife now states that she does not really like it, clouds etc. I recently bought a yacht, and now all the family are reenergised. We all sail together.

It worried me, until a very good friend said

Aeroplanes are for you, boats and yachts are for the family.

I actually saw the light, and have now realised that unless you are really truly committed, the dream of buying, and regularly flying your family, no longer makes any sense. The never ending stream of reports, with highly capable pilots, in very expensive and capable machines, buying the farm, has started to really bother me also.
My aeroplane will wait for me, once my family have grown up..

[vandereydt]

Thanks all for replying

Of course I need to look at my mission and indeed it will not be often that we fly as a family.

But, but.

But Six seaters are not easy to find for rent

But Most six seaters are in reality only four seaters. And four seaters are more 2+2 rather than full four seaters.
My flying with four adults will be more frequent, and either I sacrifice range, or tell the ladies they can only carry toothbrushes ....

I know, life is not easy,

Ronny

[sharpend]

As Sir Douglas Bader once said' It is not a 'plane' it is an aeroplane'

[9 lives]

As Sir Douglas Bader once said' It is not a 'plane' it is an aeroplane'

Ronny, you and I will have to get it right. If you're talking to Douglas Bader, make sure you get it right. Otherwise don't sweat it - as I've also heard the terms "Spam Can", "Kite", Aircraft" and, of course "Airplane" chosen by many manufacturers....

In the mean time, I have been enlightened; Modern Air, in Fowlmere, has six seat Pipers for rent. Very accommodating people there. So, you can rent six seats, while owning (and paying the expenses) on fewer seats....

[mary meagher]

Wise words from Step Turn. And he has a LOT of hours and EXPERIENCE.

As you are a beginner, do you really want to trust your family to a low experience pilot in a chaotic airspace like Europe? its not as easy to fly over here as it is in the US.

Are we there yet Dad? I have to go to the TOILET, right NOW!

I FEEL SICK. CAN WE GO HOME?

How old are these kids? As Maxred said, boats are more fun for a family.
For business trips, or travel with a reasonable chance of traveling despite poor weather, I recommend an airline.

[ChickenHouse]

Family size, min. real 6-seater, money not an issue? Get a SET rating and a Cessna Caravan - great for family and business, can even be outfitted with an on board toilet.

[AdamFrisch]

There are very few, if any, SEP six seaters you can load up with 6 people and go any further than to the next field. And even fewer I can think of that can do it safely in all weathers.

Turbine, yes. Great if you can afford that. But if you can't, then a MEP twin is your only reasonable option. There's this huge illogical resistance to twins these days, but they are great choices compared to the alternatives. They will be cheaper to run and own than a SET, safer and can carry more than a SEP.

Let's use my Aerostar as example. Useful load 1640lbs. Load up with 2 adults and 4 kids, and you probably have close to 800lbs left. That's almost full tanks (141gal). That will get you 800nm with IFR reserves at 25gal/hr. Fully de-iced, pressurized, wx radar, can fly at FL250 and 210kts. All for the cost of $145K with newly overhauled engines.

Look at the alternative: buy a SET for $2 million. You can get a lot of fuel for $2 million - more than one can use in a flying lifetime - compared to the purchase of a SET. You won't go much faster and you still don't have an out when the one engine quits in IMC.

Bottom line: twins can do your mission for less than anything else.

[vandereydt]

gentlemen,

please accept my humble apologies. It is indeed an aeroplane
Mr Frisch thank you for your ideas, they make a lot of sense. Something I am indeed looking at.
Multi-engine, refurbished... indeed an option

Thank you

Ronny

Maybe this is shocking for you all, but I do drive around with my whole family in the car, in the extremely dangerous roadtraffic in Europe

[piperboy84]

I have a wife and two kids, I have a beautiful Bonanza,

Hey Maxred should'nt that be I have a beautiful WIFE, 2 kids and a bonanza, you'll get strung up by the bollox if she ever reads that

[dirkdj]

I have flown a SEP 7 seater for 4 years, a SEP 6 seater for 42 years and counting and a MEP six seater for 15 years. Every aircraft is a compromise between price, seating capacity, fuel capacity with full seats, maintenance costs, comfort, etc etc. Used MEP aircraft are very cheap for a reason. Maintenance, airways charges, landing fees and AVGAS add up very quickly.

Older aircraft of the same type are usually lighter and can carry a bigger load than more recent models (thinking of my 1973 BE36 vs 2015 BE36). The basic airframe is the same but several hundred pounds heavier in recent models. I can carry 5x 170lbs standard adults with nearly full fuel. I have done trips to Ireland and Scotland with 6 adults on board (one couple was lightweight), we had minimum luggage on board and ample fuel reserves. UPS delivered all the suitcases we cared to ship directly to the hotel.

Without knowing your qualifications, typical mission or future aspirations, it is difficult to advise. Is this your first aircraft?

[maxred]

Piper Mrs Maxred removed those years ago, when I first put my foot in my mouth.

Let me rephrase, I have a beautiful wife, two beautiful kids, and a truly wonderful and beautiful Bonanza. Right now, I am wondering which of them is costing me more. Used to think it was my wife

Dirk, that is a good point. I have on several occasions Fed Ex'd the bags to our destination, picked them up and into the hire car. Works well on villa rentals when the kitchen sink needs to be packed.......

[9 lives]

If light to medium multi engine aircraft are coming into consideration, my cautions expand.

then a MEP twin is your only reasonable option. There's this huge illogical resistance to twins these days, but they are great choices compared to the alternatives. They will be cheaper to run and own than a SET, safer and can carry more than a SEP.

By choosing an Aerostar, Adam has sidestepped some real concerns about light twins. An Aerostar will do the job, but that makes it unusual. A C 310 and Aztec are about the smallest twins which really have what it takes to claim "safer" than a SEP. It takes a lot of nerve, but in many light twins, the failure of an engine in anything other than cruise or descent is the cue to choose a landing site in view ahead, and prepare to reduce power on the remaining engine as you set up a forced approach a little further on than the SEP would have glided. These aircraft require great skill to climb away on one, with any kind of load. There are very many accident reports describing pilots who thought they could do it, and could not. The difference to a SEP? The SEP pilot who looses and (the) engine, knows they have a forced approach in their imminent future, and make the most of it - wings level!

During twin flight testing I have done, even up to Navajos, I have advised and briefed that an engine failure on departure will be cause to initiate a forced approach ahead, rather than a go around. No one has ever disagreed with me...

I recommend the following article as an eye opener:

8740-25, Always Leave Yourself an Out

I've never had all six of us together in a car in Europe, but certainly in Canada and the US. Yes, there are also horrendous car accidents, but your more common nuisance car accident does not kill everyone in the car. Too many aircraft accidents do. A difference will be the Mrs. She is your team member in the car, quelling the kids, and supporting you. In the plane likely she's as out of her element as the kids, and of little help to you in quelling them, so you solo have a plane and five people to please.

Personally, if I needed to take my wife and four kids in a plane together, I would, but perhaps a difference is that they have flown with me in sub groups for more than 20 years, so it's not so far out of the norm for them. I guarantee you that loading the whole family into a six place plane is going to create some uneasiness, unless they are experienced fliers. To test my theory, take subsets of them on one hour long trips to another place. When it's all smiles for everyone, things are looking up. You'll know for sure, when you have a WX or MX delay for a day or two, at a truly boring place, and a skuzzy motel. If they smile through that, you're in good shape.

Speaking personally, from 40 years of flying experience, there have been many times I was very happy not to have pax, as the flight got very scary, or otherwise annoying, I was scared or annoyed, and was in no mood to Mr. nice dad hubby. When the family is delay grumpy, and you're miffed about the cause, it all goes bad fast. Avoid! The relationship you know with your family will change for the more stressed when you mix a trip in a plane into it.

One thing which has worked a few times, has been a fly drive holiday (if your Mrs. is really co-operative. and likes to drive). Fly the two or four seater and she drives the route. Land everywhere along the way, and change pax, everyone gets a turn along the route.

Happily, I can state my experience and opinion without knowing the experience of other posters (so if I'm insulting any of you, sorry) But, I would not send any of my family with a pilot of less than several hundred hours experience on class and conditions, and well into the thousands of hours experience, were it to be all of them on one flight.

I'm not writing to discourage buying a plane, anything but.... but I would make a lot of effort to dissuade a several hundred hour friend from buying a six place to fly the whole family around. I would (do) advise to buy small first, and grow if it works.

I just know too much about GA flying....

[AdamFrisch]

Step Turn, you are not necessarily wrong, but I was trying to avoid the old single vs. twin discussion and just look at performance per buck spent.

My point was simply:

SEP: Won't do it. Low cost.
MEP: Will do it. Low cost.
SET: Will do it. High cost.
MET: Will do it. High cost.

So if cost is a factor, a piston twin is your best option. Gives the maximum bang for the buck. If cost is somewhat of a factor, but you're in the turbine realm, then I would argue that the MET is the next best choice as it has climb performance on one engine AND will be cheaper to buy into than a SET. It's safer, bigger and cheaper, simply because the SET concept is rather new and there are no old SET airframes on the market. If cost is no factor at all, buy a newish SET or a Jet.

I am myself moving to a MET as we speak, because of many things we talked about: It's safer and has better performance on one engine. It's faster and burns a fuel that's less expensive, making the cost per nm the same as an Avgas twin. Fuel is more flexible and accessible. Less things can go wrong and engine management and hourly service is greatly reduced (they just don't break down very much compared to piston engines).

[abgd]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but why are there so few permit twins? The only ones I can think of are the Cri-Cri and Rutan Defiant. I can see in the UK that you wouldn't fly one IMC, so its advantage over a high-performance single is limited. But even in the USA I can't think of many.