Circuit joining
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Circuit joining
So I was flying the other day and was established on base leg and another pilot stated he was joining long final. Instantly I'm looking everywhere to see him and eventually see him on a course that would almost certainly bring us into conflict. As I'm deciding on the correct course of action, he sees me and breaks off his approach. In that situation what would you have done? My thoughts are that I was established in the circuit and he was joining the circuit so he should have given way (which he did do)...
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I think the priority goes to the lowest (altitude) plane. Which of you was lower?
It is generally thought that approaching an uncontrolled airport on a straight in is not a good idea, as someone may be in the traffic pattern ( US term).
Too bad both of you couldn't have worked it out on the radio, could you have extended downwind to allow his straight in? I know you said you were on base leg, but did you hear any radio calls of position and intention?
Before you turned from downwind to base, did you report your position, or look for traffic on straight in/final?
here is the regulation in the USA. do you have something like it?
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to
make way for an aircraft on final approach. <<<<When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake
that aircraft.>>>>
It is generally thought that approaching an uncontrolled airport on a straight in is not a good idea, as someone may be in the traffic pattern ( US term).
Too bad both of you couldn't have worked it out on the radio, could you have extended downwind to allow his straight in? I know you said you were on base leg, but did you hear any radio calls of position and intention?
Before you turned from downwind to base, did you report your position, or look for traffic on straight in/final?
here is the regulation in the USA. do you have something like it?
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to
make way for an aircraft on final approach. <<<<When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake
that aircraft.>>>>
Last edited by skyhighfallguy; 18th Feb 2015 at 00:09.
Hi Dan.
You both did the right thing. There's nothing wrong with joining 'straight in', so long as you accept that, as the one joining the circuit, you are the one who must give way if you come into conflict with an aircraft on base leg, and that, in that situation, the only safe method of giving way is to 'go around'.
MJ
You both did the right thing. There's nothing wrong with joining 'straight in', so long as you accept that, as the one joining the circuit, you are the one who must give way if you come into conflict with an aircraft on base leg, and that, in that situation, the only safe method of giving way is to 'go around'.
MJ
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Not relevant to most here, but joining straight in is highly discouraged in Australia. According to CAAP 166, If you join straight in, you have to give way to all other aircraft in the circuit. You also have to establish on final at least 3nm out and broadcast your intentions.
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It's one (of the very few) things about flying that really p*sses me off ...
I'm on base and someone, who's still outside the zone, pops up on the radio bleating "there's an aircraft encroaching, I'm on final".
Wish they would learn the rules.
OC619
I'm on base and someone, who's still outside the zone, pops up on the radio bleating "there's an aircraft encroaching, I'm on final".
Wish they would learn the rules.
OC619
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Thank goodness not everybody is going down the rules rule way. Joining circuit should always be accompanied by a high degree of respect to others, not by the "I am right because its in the rules" cowboys. If you ever fly to locations in countries where the Prussians brain are deadalive you will encounter quite some strange things. As far as I recall the traffic circuit has no legal binding, but only guideline character.
Yes, there are rules, actual more guidelines. Yes, in most countries one is asked to join 45 on downwind. Yes, going long final straight is not very polite to others on many occasions, but there may be a reason for it. Yes, the rule cowboys sometime state that everybody in circuit has priority over approaching plane, but as they are landing only on final, this is doubtful. Some even try to argue you have to keep a published altitude to be "officially in circuit", which is quite bad for i.e. fast ones which easily go 2.000ft instead of 1.000ft to get it fit to theier brick-like landing performance.
Discussion: the guidelines tend to give way to an a/c in landing not mentioning any right of way relationship to circuit traffic, so if I am only on base and someone is declaring long final landing, who is right (polite or not) - the long final is landing, but me on base not yet?
Yes, there are rules, actual more guidelines. Yes, in most countries one is asked to join 45 on downwind. Yes, going long final straight is not very polite to others on many occasions, but there may be a reason for it. Yes, the rule cowboys sometime state that everybody in circuit has priority over approaching plane, but as they are landing only on final, this is doubtful. Some even try to argue you have to keep a published altitude to be "officially in circuit", which is quite bad for i.e. fast ones which easily go 2.000ft instead of 1.000ft to get it fit to theier brick-like landing performance.
Discussion: the guidelines tend to give way to an a/c in landing not mentioning any right of way relationship to circuit traffic, so if I am only on base and someone is declaring long final landing, who is right (polite or not) - the long final is landing, but me on base not yet?
There's a straight in approach, and a Final approach. There are some who don't know when one ends and the other starts. Calling Final 3 miles out in a 150 won't win you any friends.
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ATZ are 2 miles in diameter for a reason. A circuit height of 1000ft and 500ft per min descent at 60 KIAS gets you to a landing and that's about right for most spam cans. Straight in is OK for controlled fields but anywhere else just fly the circuit like everybody else FFS.
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OK, guys, I'm flying a glider. I am on base (diagonal leg). I HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY!
As of course, a glider has the priority over a power plane! you have the option to go around. I have no option except to land.
One of our young pilots had just completed his FIVE HOURS SOLO in a non radio basic type glider - a K6. At our gliding club, his home field.
I was launchpoint coordinator. And heard NO radio calls of any sort.
Watching the K6 on approach, suddenly right in front of him, and in his way, up pops a helicopter which had evidently been visiting somebody in the village.
What a PRAT! the pilot claimed after we filed an Airmiss report, that he had phoned the day before to obtain permission! talking to the cleaning lady, perhaps....and radioed on the day, I certainly didn't hear a call!
He never looked around before taking off, that's for sure.
Our K6 pilot kept his cool. Landed OK. He is now an instructor, he had definitely displayed the Right Stuff on that day! 5 hours, and then a surprise...
As of course, a glider has the priority over a power plane! you have the option to go around. I have no option except to land.
One of our young pilots had just completed his FIVE HOURS SOLO in a non radio basic type glider - a K6. At our gliding club, his home field.
I was launchpoint coordinator. And heard NO radio calls of any sort.
Watching the K6 on approach, suddenly right in front of him, and in his way, up pops a helicopter which had evidently been visiting somebody in the village.
What a PRAT! the pilot claimed after we filed an Airmiss report, that he had phoned the day before to obtain permission! talking to the cleaning lady, perhaps....and radioed on the day, I certainly didn't hear a call!
He never looked around before taking off, that's for sure.
Our K6 pilot kept his cool. Landed OK. He is now an instructor, he had definitely displayed the Right Stuff on that day! 5 hours, and then a surprise...
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Isn't a glider almost always in some kind of landing?
Yes, glider is a special case.
Yes, declaring final out 5 miles straight won't make you friends.
But, in that case that one is landing and declares right-of-way.
If you are on base, you are busted, or?
Sometimes it does make sense to go in straight in, i.e. for noise abatement or if you are not in the typical tin can, but a 120 down 100 base 90 final 1,300ft/min descending flying brick - if the traffic circuit is overcrowded by 40 knots ML it may be the better chance to get down. BUT, in that special case respect is the most wanted challenge.
Last weekend I had to extend downwind two times, going far out published traffic circuit, at a crowded uncontrolled airfield, because of these straight-in-very-late-call cowboys, which was annoying, but so what - what was the other option? Yell at them on radio? I lived from the feeling to be the better one.
Yes, glider is a special case.
Yes, declaring final out 5 miles straight won't make you friends.
But, in that case that one is landing and declares right-of-way.
If you are on base, you are busted, or?
Sometimes it does make sense to go in straight in, i.e. for noise abatement or if you are not in the typical tin can, but a 120 down 100 base 90 final 1,300ft/min descending flying brick - if the traffic circuit is overcrowded by 40 knots ML it may be the better chance to get down. BUT, in that special case respect is the most wanted challenge.
Last weekend I had to extend downwind two times, going far out published traffic circuit, at a crowded uncontrolled airfield, because of these straight-in-very-late-call cowboys, which was annoying, but so what - what was the other option? Yell at them on radio? I lived from the feeling to be the better one.
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This happened to me on my first solo
As I reported downwind, I heard another aircraft report long final. Some way downwind I saw him, further out and high. I thought he'd also see me. Getting closer to turning base he was still well above me, doing a fair rate of knots and appeared not to see me.
Extending downwind is discouraged at Elstree, so I went around. He never made any signs of having seen me. Tower (Elstree is AFIS) had never heard of him before he called 'long final'.
One for the books, but, ultimately, one to learn from. Whether inadvertently or not, these things happen and you may as well expect it. The good news was that one of us at least had seen the other one. Doing an extra circuit is, at the end of the day, a nuisance but not the end of the world.
B.
As I reported downwind, I heard another aircraft report long final. Some way downwind I saw him, further out and high. I thought he'd also see me. Getting closer to turning base he was still well above me, doing a fair rate of knots and appeared not to see me.
Extending downwind is discouraged at Elstree, so I went around. He never made any signs of having seen me. Tower (Elstree is AFIS) had never heard of him before he called 'long final'.
One for the books, but, ultimately, one to learn from. Whether inadvertently or not, these things happen and you may as well expect it. The good news was that one of us at least had seen the other one. Doing an extra circuit is, at the end of the day, a nuisance but not the end of the world.
B.
So I was flying the other day and was established on base leg and another pilot stated he was joining long final. Instantly I'm looking everywhere to see him and eventually see him on a course that would almost certainly bring us into conflict. As I'm deciding on the correct course of action, he sees me and breaks off his approach. In that situation what would you have done? My thoughts are that I was established in the circuit and he was joining the circuit so he should have given way (which he did do)...
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the lower aircraft has priority
After 2 go arounds already due to the said airfield being busy and aircrafts on the runway, I went for my third go around. Positioned downwind and just for reference the wind was Easterly at 10kts.
There was an aircraft in front of me on the downwind leg and an aircraft behind on the crosswind leg.
I turned base on the correct heading and correct positioning, only to see the aircraft that was in front.. really lower down than me and further out to the right in the wrong position. I called "Final" and "Contact/Visual with aircraft lower".
On the radio the Instructor in the plane quips "Aircraft on base are you visual with one lower and BEHIND". ... "Affirm.. Visual".
Then in an arsy voice when Im 400ft approx and short final she quips.. "Are you intending to Land".
Thinking that I am right and have right of way I was tempted to be arsy back and say "Well i am positioned on final in the correct position so YES I was intended to land".
However, I politely said "Affirm that was the intention but will go around".. thinking that I might have been wrong..
It later transpired I was correct and had right of way. Said Instructor was just arsy!
What else can one do if you encounter an out of position aircraft with arsy instructor?
Scoob.
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UK, Rule 12(a):
No traffic = No Pattern.
Yes Traffic = Yes Pattern = Yes Conform.
Not difficult.
conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome
No traffic = No Pattern.
Yes Traffic = Yes Pattern = Yes Conform.
Not difficult.
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What else can one do if you encounter an out of position aircraft with arsy instructor?
What I have found is that it is *incredibly hard* to judge the position of other aircraft in the circuit accurately against their ground track. The only really reliable way would be to look at their shadows - something that doesn't work all that often.
I was once approaching a controlled airfield and I just happened to have an instructor on board. We were fairly close to an aircraft ahead. We were to stay at 1500', the preceding was instructed to descend to 1000'. We watched the aircraft descend and descend further and we would swear that it was breaking the low-flying rules in a big way. It was only when we were instructed to descend to 1000' as well, that we saw them back on the horizon. ILAFFT.
In your case, that aircraft may well have been in a proper position. Maybe not ace-perfect, but close enough for a student. Maybe a little higher or lower than normal, but that happens. And the solution is simple: When you are behind another aircraft in the circuit, you follow that aircraft. Do not simply fly the normal circuit track as if there's nobody ahead of you. In your case you turned base before he did, effectively cutting him off.
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I am sure it was out of position as the traffic pattern the aircraft was flying was not flown by aircraft before and after.. also i had already done 3 approaches. There are some pretty distinct features which would be your base turning point such as Power Lines, a distinct farm etc.. the only time you would likely deviate is for a without flap landing.
The other aircraft in the pattern also turned at the same point as I did...
I agree with the point about comparing tracks etc and it can be difficult to judge but it was clear in this instance even to the chap in the RHS. However considering there was an instructor on boad that plane I just wondered about the semantics etc.
But fully take on board what you and others have said.
S.
The other aircraft in the pattern also turned at the same point as I did...
I agree with the point about comparing tracks etc and it can be difficult to judge but it was clear in this instance even to the chap in the RHS. However considering there was an instructor on boad that plane I just wondered about the semantics etc.
But fully take on board what you and others have said.
S.