Gliding Question (Mary Meagher)?
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Gliding Question (Mary Meagher)?
I am a fixed wing instructor, who is on the verge of packing it all in due to disillusionment on a large scale, which I won't go into on this post.
I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).
A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!
Thanks for reading
I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).
A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!
Thanks for reading
Hi Ellie,
I do both so hopefully you will enjoy gliding! Each flight is unique and the challenge never dies! I'm not in the same league as the legendary Mary but I hope my answers below will suffice in the meantime!
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option: My own personal view is that power PFL and glider field landings are apples and oranges; different initatiing reasons, techniques and workloads. Gliding will probably polish your field selection skills and make you more comfortable with the concept of landing out.
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor: Definitely admit to it - you'll get paired with the correctly rated instructor and you can just get on with the differences training. The majority of my gliding colleagues fly power too.
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons: Learning generally cheaper - the initial trial lesson tends to include a bung towards insurance. Expect £20-£30 for a tow to 2000' / £7-£10 for a winch launch to 1200'. Annual memberships varies from £200 to £500. Budget a grand and you'll be bomb proof.
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding: Understanding Gliding by Derek Piggot is the classic text and still worth a read. The BGA website has some good suggestions.
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..! It is pretty rare to end up in the hedge and is normally the result of pulling the wrong lever or not putting the right lever away. Gliders have stunning airbrakes and respond well to sideslipping in an overshoot scenario. In an undershoot scenario closing the brakes has a dramatic effect in lift restoration. The key skill is anticipating windshear but it's all pretty straightforward.
Where abouts are you based? Most clubs are pretty good.
Go for it!
I do both so hopefully you will enjoy gliding! Each flight is unique and the challenge never dies! I'm not in the same league as the legendary Mary but I hope my answers below will suffice in the meantime!
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option: My own personal view is that power PFL and glider field landings are apples and oranges; different initatiing reasons, techniques and workloads. Gliding will probably polish your field selection skills and make you more comfortable with the concept of landing out.
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor: Definitely admit to it - you'll get paired with the correctly rated instructor and you can just get on with the differences training. The majority of my gliding colleagues fly power too.
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons: Learning generally cheaper - the initial trial lesson tends to include a bung towards insurance. Expect £20-£30 for a tow to 2000' / £7-£10 for a winch launch to 1200'. Annual memberships varies from £200 to £500. Budget a grand and you'll be bomb proof.
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding: Understanding Gliding by Derek Piggot is the classic text and still worth a read. The BGA website has some good suggestions.
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..! It is pretty rare to end up in the hedge and is normally the result of pulling the wrong lever or not putting the right lever away. Gliders have stunning airbrakes and respond well to sideslipping in an overshoot scenario. In an undershoot scenario closing the brakes has a dramatic effect in lift restoration. The key skill is anticipating windshear but it's all pretty straightforward.
Where abouts are you based? Most clubs are pretty good.
Go for it!
Five Flight Packages vs. Intros
Intros tend to be expensive. Club treasurers like them for revenue generation.
A five flight package is a good way to get acquainted with a club. Some clubs have personality issues; others are inefficient so that it's hard for students to get sufficient flights to progress. It's wise to get to know them a bit before signing up for annual and initiation fees.
You also want to find out how much opportunity, i.e. equipment, is available for licensed pilots to go cross country.
Find the clubs in your area and visit them all. Talk to the students and especially newly licensed pilots to find out how long they took to get licensed
A five flight package is a good way to get acquainted with a club. Some clubs have personality issues; others are inefficient so that it's hard for students to get sufficient flights to progress. It's wise to get to know them a bit before signing up for annual and initiation fees.
You also want to find out how much opportunity, i.e. equipment, is available for licensed pilots to go cross country.
Find the clubs in your area and visit them all. Talk to the students and especially newly licensed pilots to find out how long they took to get licensed
EV,
Go for it - you'll have a lot of fun and you will learn a lot.
My opinion is that starting in a motorglider is the way to go, provided that it really performs like a glider with the engine off. Much better value for money and you will learn quicker - more landings per hour. Once you have learned how to land, then transition to a two-seat glider and learn aero-towing and/or winch launching.
Learning to aero-tow for most power pilots is a real eye-opener. The only one I taught who had no problem, had been a WWII test-pilot and had 10,000 hours!
PS Gliders have a yaw-string outside the canopy, which is much more sensitive than a slip ball. When I first started flying gliders, I was already a power-pilot. I was told "the yaw string moves the opposite way to a slip ball" which is true but didn't help me. What finally worked for me, was to look at the front, fixed end of the yaw string and treat it as if it was a slip ball i.e. push it back to the centre-line with the appropriate rudder pedal.
Go for it - you'll have a lot of fun and you will learn a lot.
My opinion is that starting in a motorglider is the way to go, provided that it really performs like a glider with the engine off. Much better value for money and you will learn quicker - more landings per hour. Once you have learned how to land, then transition to a two-seat glider and learn aero-towing and/or winch launching.
Learning to aero-tow for most power pilots is a real eye-opener. The only one I taught who had no problem, had been a WWII test-pilot and had 10,000 hours!
PS Gliders have a yaw-string outside the canopy, which is much more sensitive than a slip ball. When I first started flying gliders, I was already a power-pilot. I was told "the yaw string moves the opposite way to a slip ball" which is true but didn't help me. What finally worked for me, was to look at the front, fixed end of the yaw string and treat it as if it was a slip ball i.e. push it back to the centre-line with the appropriate rudder pedal.
Last edited by India Four Two; 14th Jan 2015 at 06:03. Reason: Added PS
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I am a fixed wing instructor, who is on the verge of packing it all in due to disillusionment on a large scale, which I won't go into on this post.
I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).
A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
I suspect you would start in a pure glider and maybe convert to a motor glider later. If you take up gliding you will learn all the usual stuff in the usual order, not jump straight to PFL.
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor
You won't be able to hide it! However you do need to leave it behind to think like a glider pilot. No power to call on to get you out of trouble, and the performance of even a training glider is very different.
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons
Don't look at the trial lesson prices, look at the costs for becoming a member. Some clubs offer very good value packages for new members.
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding
Derek Piggott's books are often recommended.
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!
We fly a very variable circuit which preserves height, as height is energy, which combined with very powerful airbrakes means a great deal can be done from an unfortunate position. For example on a windy day the base leg is much closer to the landing area then on a benign day. I say 'powerful airbrakes' - those on a Falke (common motorglider) are pretty poor compared to most gliders. A Grob 109 is a much better beast in that respect. Personally I find the long shallow approaches of a power plane quite scary.
Thanks for reading
I have been reading the posts on gliding with much interest, as here is something I've been intending to try for ages but never got around to. (It may just possibly save my flying soul).
A few questions that I have follow, it would be great if people in the know could give an opinion:
1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
I suspect you would start in a pure glider and maybe convert to a motor glider later. If you take up gliding you will learn all the usual stuff in the usual order, not jump straight to PFL.
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor
You won't be able to hide it! However you do need to leave it behind to think like a glider pilot. No power to call on to get you out of trouble, and the performance of even a training glider is very different.
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons
Don't look at the trial lesson prices, look at the costs for becoming a member. Some clubs offer very good value packages for new members.
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding
Derek Piggott's books are often recommended.
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!
We fly a very variable circuit which preserves height, as height is energy, which combined with very powerful airbrakes means a great deal can be done from an unfortunate position. For example on a windy day the base leg is much closer to the landing area then on a benign day. I say 'powerful airbrakes' - those on a Falke (common motorglider) are pretty poor compared to most gliders. A Grob 109 is a much better beast in that respect. Personally I find the long shallow approaches of a power plane quite scary.
Thanks for reading
Look at all the clubs it would be practical for you to fly at, visit them, see where you feel comfortable and where they fly when you can get to the club.
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Hello Ellie - does that name imply we share the same gender?
With all THAT implies!! (we live longer, for one thing. And we are more cautious than the blokes...see auto insurance statistics for confirmation).
The answers to your questions depend very much on which continent you inhabit. For the UK there is a lot of information on the thread asking about Easter holiday gliding.
Couple of Canadian glider pilots have responded on this thread. Like the US, their aviation authority presumes to license gliding, while knowing absolutely bugger all about it. In the UK, we are all huddling under the umbrella of ESA, the European licensing arrangement, which is nevertheless allowing grandfather rights to all the free thinking arrangements of Britain. (British Gliding Association the cover org, no licenses as such; also we have up to now been allowed to fly gliders in cloud).
Please send me a personal message, for more information....and I really hope you live near Shenington!
Mary
PS. If you screw up the approach, it is better to enter the hedge at the end and not at the start....the slower the impact the less the damage.
PPS....Ridger, not always good to sideslip a glider....some will, some bite.
Know your type. The Pegasus bites, and I also think the ASW15 is unhappy to sideslip; also, can you imagine sideslipping a glider with a 22 meter wingspan?
With all THAT implies!! (we live longer, for one thing. And we are more cautious than the blokes...see auto insurance statistics for confirmation).
The answers to your questions depend very much on which continent you inhabit. For the UK there is a lot of information on the thread asking about Easter holiday gliding.
Couple of Canadian glider pilots have responded on this thread. Like the US, their aviation authority presumes to license gliding, while knowing absolutely bugger all about it. In the UK, we are all huddling under the umbrella of ESA, the European licensing arrangement, which is nevertheless allowing grandfather rights to all the free thinking arrangements of Britain. (British Gliding Association the cover org, no licenses as such; also we have up to now been allowed to fly gliders in cloud).
Please send me a personal message, for more information....and I really hope you live near Shenington!
Mary
PS. If you screw up the approach, it is better to enter the hedge at the end and not at the start....the slower the impact the less the damage.
PPS....Ridger, not always good to sideslip a glider....some will, some bite.
Know your type. The Pegasus bites, and I also think the ASW15 is unhappy to sideslip; also, can you imagine sideslipping a glider with a 22 meter wingspan?
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Personally I find the long shallow approaches of a power plane quite scary.
In the Yak it'd be steeper!
3) In BGA-land you're actually buying a trial membership with the first flight(s) included. If you use the membership by coming back it works out as good value. No landing fees or instructor fees but annual membership fees. Anywhere between £1,000 to £2,000 a year will get you plenty of flying in club machines but it can easily be done for less.
1) We teach circuits using the basic principles of height/distance/angle, effectively constant aspect, but inevitably students start flying by rote using local landmarks. A motorglider takes them away from the local area & tests that the student can still fly an effective circuit using the basic principles. So, good for testing but not required for learning. However, at a busy club the motorglider avoids having to wait in the launch queue between flights, so definitely worth having that option.
4) BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - BGA Manual - Gliding-Theory of Flight - (Powered by CubeCart)
BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - The Soaring Pilots Manual - (Powered by CubeCart)
5) You can land anywhere on the airfield & if it's long enough to winch from there's usually plenty of room.
1) We teach circuits using the basic principles of height/distance/angle, effectively constant aspect, but inevitably students start flying by rote using local landmarks. A motorglider takes them away from the local area & tests that the student can still fly an effective circuit using the basic principles. So, good for testing but not required for learning. However, at a busy club the motorglider avoids having to wait in the launch queue between flights, so definitely worth having that option.
4) BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - BGA Manual - Gliding-Theory of Flight - (Powered by CubeCart)
BGA - British Gliding Association - Online Shop - The Soaring Pilots Manual - (Powered by CubeCart)
5) You can land anywhere on the airfield & if it's long enough to winch from there's usually plenty of room.
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Pegase is fine so long as it's without airbrakes - they create turbulence that in a side-slip blankets the tail so the nose drops. As to 22m span - I know a couple of folks that have side-slipped a 25m span. Obviously you need to be out of it far enough above the ground...
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1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
2) Should I 'leave' my flying experience to date behind, (& start from scratch with no pressure), or fess up my background to the instructor
3). What sort of costs can I expect? On looking on gliding websites, trial lessons are almost as much as powered fixed wing ones are - is this the case for subsequent lessons
4) Are there any recommended books to read on the subject of gliding
5). Finally, (& excuse my ignorance on this one), what do glider pilots do if they have messed up the landing back at the gliding field/site, as they can't go around..... Surely it does happen sometimes..!
I got hooked after visiting a club near Zurich. I just walked into a club and asked if I could have a go. They were great and called up an instructor that lived locally. Next day I made a 4 hour flight in the mountains. Soared with birds, used thermal, ridge and wave lift, went to 13,000ft, flew past climbers half way up a sheer rock face, flew over a glacier and generally blew my mind.
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Motor Gliders generally have a poorer glide ratio than a pure glider, but have the advantage that you can get flying on days when the club isn't operating. I suspect also that you'll get more circuits/hour in a TMG/SLMG than when being dragged.
Motor Gliders generally have a poorer glide ratio than a pure glider, but have the advantage that you can get flying on days when the club isn't operating. I suspect also that you'll get more circuits/hour in a TMG/SLMG than when being dragged.
Students could book lessons and turn up - no ground handling team was required. A typical circuit would be:
- student apply full power, keep straight and takeoff
- accelerate in ground effect to climb speed (not much different from taking off behind a tow-plane)
- climb out via the cross-wind leg and establish downwind at circuit height.
- I would then shut the engine down while the student flew the aircraft
- the rest of the circuit and landing was like a normal glider, using spoilers to adjust the glide path
- once on the ground and while still moving, I would restart the engine and the student would apply full power and take off again
We could easily do six circuits an hour. It did wonders for a student's progress and continuity. Compare that with hanging around a drafty airfield all day and getting perhaps one or two flights, followed be a one or two week delay, before the next lesson.
Concerning the poor glide ratio, it was easy to simulate a higher-performance glider, by keeping the engine running at a low power setting.
Like the US, their aviation authority presumes to license gliding, while knowing absolutely bugger all about it.
While TC issues the licences (and instructor ratings) upon receipt of the appropriate forms and money, the SAC administers all ab-initio and instructor training, by delegating authority to the CFIs of its member clubs and by running regional instructor courses. So it's pretty much the same as the BGA.
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So Canada is a bit more sensible than the FAA, which requires no cross country flying to qualify for becoming a gliding instructor! At least the Canadian authority has the sense to delegate to those who have some understanding of the art.
But I do think the tandem arrangement of the two seats in a training glider has advantages. No blind spots for the student, clear lookout both ways. And when he starts flying on his own, solo in the training machine, or in a single seat glider, it is both natural and familiar to be centered. A penalty in performance is paid by any twoseat arrangement side by side, just too broad to slide nicely through the air! Soaring a Falke? better find some pretty strong thermals! And keeping the engine running is CHEATING! that's not gliding! go on, man up, turn it off!
I did fly once with the old master himself, Derrick Piggot, in the Falke from Lasham.... he was very keen on motor glider training. He is still flying, had a check ride at our club this summer to fly his classic glider up the wire....our instructor was really on her mettle doing that check ride, you bet!
He's still supreme.
But I do think the tandem arrangement of the two seats in a training glider has advantages. No blind spots for the student, clear lookout both ways. And when he starts flying on his own, solo in the training machine, or in a single seat glider, it is both natural and familiar to be centered. A penalty in performance is paid by any twoseat arrangement side by side, just too broad to slide nicely through the air! Soaring a Falke? better find some pretty strong thermals! And keeping the engine running is CHEATING! that's not gliding! go on, man up, turn it off!
I did fly once with the old master himself, Derrick Piggot, in the Falke from Lasham.... he was very keen on motor glider training. He is still flying, had a check ride at our club this summer to fly his classic glider up the wire....our instructor was really on her mettle doing that check ride, you bet!
He's still supreme.
Last September-October Old mate flew his Falke from Tasmania to Burketown up on the Gulf of Carpentaria for the fifth year running
it's about a 7000 kms return trip for him. Up there on successive days he has contacted
the long annular bore cloud they call The Morning Glory . You take off at first light and by lunch time you are ready to drop off . Have a feed and a kip.
As you run along in front of it , often the lift is so strong you have to keep pulling her up not to go through the red line
surfing that cloud has to be one of gliding's greatest euphorias imaginable
in the Falke or the Dimona or the Ximango or the Stemme it's so good to be able
to share the side by side with another enthusiast or someone having their first taste
(that's why Nat Puffer finally got Burt Rutan to agree to Nat building the side by side Varieze , ,,. . The Cozy)
There's space available this year in a Dimona for The Glory . . .. . PM for more info
it's about a 7000 kms return trip for him. Up there on successive days he has contacted
the long annular bore cloud they call The Morning Glory . You take off at first light and by lunch time you are ready to drop off . Have a feed and a kip.
As you run along in front of it , often the lift is so strong you have to keep pulling her up not to go through the red line
surfing that cloud has to be one of gliding's greatest euphorias imaginable
in the Falke or the Dimona or the Ximango or the Stemme it's so good to be able
to share the side by side with another enthusiast or someone having their first taste
(that's why Nat Puffer finally got Burt Rutan to agree to Nat building the side by side Varieze , ,,. . The Cozy)
There's space available this year in a Dimona for The Glory . . .. . PM for more info
And keeping the engine running is CHEATING! that's not gliding! go on, man up, turn it off!
It wasn't about cheating - it was about teaching people how to plan a circuit in a 35:1 glider.
Fantome,
I might take you up on that if I'm down that way. I've always wanted to soar on the Morning Glory, ever since I first read about it.
7000 km in a Falke - the mind boggles. The longest trip I did was Cold Lake to Calgary (240 nm) and that was mind- and bum-numbing. I managed to speed it up by dolphining and increased my ground speed by 15kts.
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1) As well as learning generally, I'm interested in what gliding could bring to my PFL teaching skills. With this in mind, would a motor glider be a better option
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My club for one won't allow him to just do differences in a Falke. We have plenty of PPLs etc. and they are required to do 10 hours a year in a glider as we are (at present) a gliding club, not a motor glider, microlight or other kind of club.
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A Falke is NOT a glider, it is a motor glider. It makes an irritating noise that interferes with conversation. ( I wonder if the chap who did the long Falke flight along the Morning Glory turned off his engine? hope so!) It smells. It carries avgas in a tank somewhere it can spill over the whole arrangement if it goes splat. And sometimes on taking off, even with a very very experienced person in charge, the engine has been known to stop. which if there is not very much room to land ahead, you enjoy the experience of EFAT....
In a glider, this is known as a launch failure. The winch cable breaks, the winch engine suffers indigestion or the tug dumps you.
You have trained for this eventuality, over and over, BEFORE you go solo in a glider. At 30 feet, at 150 feet, at 300 feet, etc etc. And it is REAL.
It is the PERFORMANCE OF THE GLIDER that you use in this case to get yourself on the ground nicely enough to use the glider again. Meanwhile the guy in the spam can or the motor glider if he is well practiced in the real EFAT, will of course immediately land wherever. Won't he? or will he be trying to restart his engine? or return to the airfield, using the impossible turn?
Confess, you Falke fliers, do you turn it off or don't you?
In a glider, this is known as a launch failure. The winch cable breaks, the winch engine suffers indigestion or the tug dumps you.
You have trained for this eventuality, over and over, BEFORE you go solo in a glider. At 30 feet, at 150 feet, at 300 feet, etc etc. And it is REAL.
It is the PERFORMANCE OF THE GLIDER that you use in this case to get yourself on the ground nicely enough to use the glider again. Meanwhile the guy in the spam can or the motor glider if he is well practiced in the real EFAT, will of course immediately land wherever. Won't he? or will he be trying to restart his engine? or return to the airfield, using the impossible turn?
Confess, you Falke fliers, do you turn it off or don't you?