Plane crash near Basingstoke UK
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Dax,
I too regularly fly with my son - now 11 but a regular passenger from 2 onwards. You just have to do your best to minimise the significant risks. Birdstrike through the canopy causing serious injury is massively unlikely; pressing on VFR into IMC is an obviously dangerous thing and you can avoid it in several ways. Mine is to have and keep properly current an IR(R), but I am lucky enough to fly from an airfield with an ILS. My wife is completely understanding but this has been uncomfortably close to home - Popham is so close to home base that I've actually only been twice, but it's a familiar sight.
I have, though, used this crash as an opportunity to remind my son that if what I am doing seems dangerous to him, he must say so. He is an avid watcher of Air Crash Investigation and understands a lot about heuristic traps as a result. Maybe one day he will be the one who says to me that we should get a hotel room or a train home...
I too regularly fly with my son - now 11 but a regular passenger from 2 onwards. You just have to do your best to minimise the significant risks. Birdstrike through the canopy causing serious injury is massively unlikely; pressing on VFR into IMC is an obviously dangerous thing and you can avoid it in several ways. Mine is to have and keep properly current an IR(R), but I am lucky enough to fly from an airfield with an ILS. My wife is completely understanding but this has been uncomfortably close to home - Popham is so close to home base that I've actually only been twice, but it's a familiar sight.
I have, though, used this crash as an opportunity to remind my son that if what I am doing seems dangerous to him, he must say so. He is an avid watcher of Air Crash Investigation and understands a lot about heuristic traps as a result. Maybe one day he will be the one who says to me that we should get a hotel room or a train home...
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I flew some fun training hours with a great instructor /commercial pilot in USA on gliders many years ago, he flew piston twins for a living but had a personal SOP to only fly VFR with family members ( mostly fun trips on vacation or jollies)
Sounded sensible to me is I adopted it and it is a rule that has worked well for me so I am posting it for others to consider as a reasonable practice
Sounded sensible to me is I adopted it and it is a rule that has worked well for me so I am posting it for others to consider as a reasonable practice
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Would the light a/c involved in the accident have carried a Mode C transponder? If it had and had the pilot been in contact with a nearby radar unit ATC might have nudged him about his altitude.
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Sounded sensible to me is I adopted it and it is a rule that has worked well for me so I am posting it for others to consider as a reasonable practice
The issue here is decision making and airmanship. If a pilot sets off, in a machine that is fit for purpose, he has reviewed all conditions, at destination, and on route, and he is suitably qualified, and current for the mission he is about to embark on, then as well as he could, all bases have been covered. Accidents can still happen.
But, to set off with family members, in challenging circumstances, remember they rely on you to ensure their safety, is untenable. The accident in the States, with the surviving 7 year old, is receiving, rightly so, very, very bad publicity. GA can well do without these incidents, life is tough enough, but the press are concentrating on the fact that she walked out in a tee shirt, no shoes, and a pair of shorts.
This wee fella jumped into a Permit aircraft, trusting his Dad, who then took off, into very poor, Metar'd weather, on route, and at destination. Now, he may have had a full IR panel it, but I would doubt it was IR certified. He also had the option to go up, see what it was like, think no way, and return to Bembridge. You makes your choice...
I probably am an old woman, but I am still alive after 10,000 hrs.
In my light aircraft we wear Nomex flying suits, quality flying helmets, we don't fly in bad weather (though I have an IR and the aircraft has 2 x VOR, 2 x GPS, DME), and we carry an emergency bag which, amongst other things, contains a PLB.
Yes, both my partner & I get ribbed for wearing 'fancy dress', normally by idiots who fly in shorts and T-shirts. That is their choice, we have made ours.
We don't wear our protection for show.
In my light aircraft we wear Nomex flying suits, quality flying helmets, we don't fly in bad weather (though I have an IR and the aircraft has 2 x VOR, 2 x GPS, DME), and we carry an emergency bag which, amongst other things, contains a PLB.
Yes, both my partner & I get ribbed for wearing 'fancy dress', normally by idiots who fly in shorts and T-shirts. That is their choice, we have made ours.
We don't wear our protection for show.
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Or go and rent or buy a Cirrus and educate your loved ones in the use of the chute.
it has saved many from usually pilot mistakes and inadequacies and gives you and your loved ones an extra element to consider if all goes pear shaped
Pace
it has saved many from usually pilot mistakes and inadequacies and gives you and your loved ones an extra element to consider if all goes pear shaped
Pace
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Pilot ratings?
I'd be interested to know what ratings this guy had beyond his basic PPL.
I'm surmising that he wasn't either IMC or working a radar station, one or both of which might indeed have saved this dreadful tragedy.
I once (not that long ago, but pre smartfone) had an option to take off from an un-manned Bembridge but elected not to due to wx uncertainty, even with IMC rating. Loooooong taxi/ferry ride ensued and I collected a/c a couple of days later. Very expensive, but the right call on the day.
Private flying is a risk, like anything else. One can only try to minimise that risk.
To others, that have spoken on this thtead of concern about taking their precious and eager children aloft, I'd say 'go for it. Share the fun'.
I well remember my Skills Test Examiner saying to me, before the test: 'Luke, there are no tricks today-I just want to be sure that I could trust you to take my wife and son flying'.
Words I've thought of each and every time I have lined up and declared my readiness for departure, solo, or with passengers.
I'm surmising that he wasn't either IMC or working a radar station, one or both of which might indeed have saved this dreadful tragedy.
I once (not that long ago, but pre smartfone) had an option to take off from an un-manned Bembridge but elected not to due to wx uncertainty, even with IMC rating. Loooooong taxi/ferry ride ensued and I collected a/c a couple of days later. Very expensive, but the right call on the day.
Private flying is a risk, like anything else. One can only try to minimise that risk.
To others, that have spoken on this thtead of concern about taking their precious and eager children aloft, I'd say 'go for it. Share the fun'.
I well remember my Skills Test Examiner saying to me, before the test: 'Luke, there are no tricks today-I just want to be sure that I could trust you to take my wife and son flying'.
Words I've thought of each and every time I have lined up and declared my readiness for departure, solo, or with passengers.
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Yes but I did stress the word " Educate " Which maybe should have also referred to the pilot as well.
That means the pilot not allowing a situation to develop to the point that he is desperately lost in low cloud and poor visibility with no game plan other than a wish and a prayer and pulling the chute at a suitable altitude.
in this situation and in a Cirrus aircraft the chute would probably have saved them if used correctly and at the right time.
my own example many years back was used by one poster as an example . the difference was I had a game plan knew the area exceptionally well, knew I could not hit anything with the river below knew the back of the front lay ahead and was as comfortable flying in clouds as out so I was fully comfortable taking to the clouds and the MSA when plan A was not working.
Also the actual and TAFS on departure were for 800 broken and 6K in light rain not what developed for part of the route with clear weather already into my destination.
And that is the point! Never fly without an " out " an alternative plan if A does not work because then you are in the lap of the Gods
its about the pilot always being in control of the situation and his actions its when that control is lost that these tragic accidents happen
Spannerinthewerks
How you can post my example from years back as some sort of vindication of your view I don't know! You neither know the cause of this tragic accident or the background to the flight I made. I am very happy you have survived 40 years of flying I am not that far behind you on years of flying but probably 10 times your hours
i always preach fly within your and your aircrafts limits which you obviously do as so do I but don't judge others on your own abilities or views on aviation as they may not be the same as others.
Pilots will legally with a night rating fly a single piston at night! I consider that to be a highly risky occupation as there are no outs no game plan if the donkey goes bang! I do not find that an acceptable risk so don't fly singles at night but I don't dictate my views on others
Pace
That means the pilot not allowing a situation to develop to the point that he is desperately lost in low cloud and poor visibility with no game plan other than a wish and a prayer and pulling the chute at a suitable altitude.
in this situation and in a Cirrus aircraft the chute would probably have saved them if used correctly and at the right time.
my own example many years back was used by one poster as an example . the difference was I had a game plan knew the area exceptionally well, knew I could not hit anything with the river below knew the back of the front lay ahead and was as comfortable flying in clouds as out so I was fully comfortable taking to the clouds and the MSA when plan A was not working.
Also the actual and TAFS on departure were for 800 broken and 6K in light rain not what developed for part of the route with clear weather already into my destination.
And that is the point! Never fly without an " out " an alternative plan if A does not work because then you are in the lap of the Gods
its about the pilot always being in control of the situation and his actions its when that control is lost that these tragic accidents happen
I have survived for 40 years as a pilot by not being gung-ho, by following the rules and by passing on the knowledge I have gained to others.
It's not ironic - wish it was - but tragic that someone has succumbed to the very dangers I tried to point out in my Thread.
It's not ironic - wish it was - but tragic that someone has succumbed to the very dangers I tried to point out in my Thread.
How you can post my example from years back as some sort of vindication of your view I don't know! You neither know the cause of this tragic accident or the background to the flight I made. I am very happy you have survived 40 years of flying I am not that far behind you on years of flying but probably 10 times your hours
i always preach fly within your and your aircrafts limits which you obviously do as so do I but don't judge others on your own abilities or views on aviation as they may not be the same as others.
Pilots will legally with a night rating fly a single piston at night! I consider that to be a highly risky occupation as there are no outs no game plan if the donkey goes bang! I do not find that an acceptable risk so don't fly singles at night but I don't dictate my views on others
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Jan 2015 at 15:34.
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My thoughts on weather, let me preface by saying I have spent the last year attaining my FAA instrument and commercial rating and am about to embark on my CFI rating, I have attended Met GA weather training seminars in Exeter and have spent the last few years reading and rereading FAA published Aviation Weather Services training manuals and relentlessly pick the brains of more experienced pilots about weather conditions and observations, I have about 800 TT and have been flying for 20 years.
BUT , and here is the rub, I honestly feel I am still not proficient in the process of acquiring, determining the applicability and interpreting aviation weather in a manner that matches the levels of safety and comfort that I possess in other areas of GA flying. When I look at flying overall there can be no doubt there is a definitive process and procedure for most aspects, god knows we have checklists coming out our rear-end for every phase of flight and aircraft inspection including mechanical, documentation and licensing that are black and white. When it comes to weather we are taught a hodge-podge of methods, sources and steps that are available from multiple official and unofficial resources that is hard for a guy like me to put into a go/no go workflow or checklist because of the infinite variables. In the tragic case that initiated this thread it’s obvious that the weather conditions were decidedly not suitable for VFR but there is a whole bunch of conditions between what this guy flew in and VFR,999,SKC, no wind, that present significant dangers to the average GA pilot that can be missed due to information overload or interpretation failures.
Just my 2 cents
BUT , and here is the rub, I honestly feel I am still not proficient in the process of acquiring, determining the applicability and interpreting aviation weather in a manner that matches the levels of safety and comfort that I possess in other areas of GA flying. When I look at flying overall there can be no doubt there is a definitive process and procedure for most aspects, god knows we have checklists coming out our rear-end for every phase of flight and aircraft inspection including mechanical, documentation and licensing that are black and white. When it comes to weather we are taught a hodge-podge of methods, sources and steps that are available from multiple official and unofficial resources that is hard for a guy like me to put into a go/no go workflow or checklist because of the infinite variables. In the tragic case that initiated this thread it’s obvious that the weather conditions were decidedly not suitable for VFR but there is a whole bunch of conditions between what this guy flew in and VFR,999,SKC, no wind, that present significant dangers to the average GA pilot that can be missed due to information overload or interpretation failures.
Just my 2 cents
Pace:
I can well understand your personal reluctance to fly single piston aircraft at night but has it ever occured to you that the Royal Air Force did this for years and years and years with very little problem?
I myself, did many hours at night in the Piston Provost behind an Alvis Leonides engine which had a lot more moving parts than the average Lycoming O-320.
Indeed, towards the end of my 50-odd years of accident and incident free professional flying, I used to get a great deal of enjoyment out of going night flying in my PA-28.
Each to his own taste.
I can well understand your personal reluctance to fly single piston aircraft at night but has it ever occured to you that the Royal Air Force did this for years and years and years with very little problem?
I myself, did many hours at night in the Piston Provost behind an Alvis Leonides engine which had a lot more moving parts than the average Lycoming O-320.
Indeed, towards the end of my 50-odd years of accident and incident free professional flying, I used to get a great deal of enjoyment out of going night flying in my PA-28.
Each to his own taste.
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Night flying is, indeed great. Returning to base during the afternoon, watching dusk fall, then making a night approach and landing is such a pleasure.
As is flying across the channel by day, and from Morocco to the Canaries, (200 NM and I only saw 3 ships).
Sure; an increased risk, but correctly assessed and prepared for, an acceptable one.
IMHO.
As is flying across the channel by day, and from Morocco to the Canaries, (200 NM and I only saw 3 ships).
Sure; an increased risk, but correctly assessed and prepared for, an acceptable one.
IMHO.
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When it comes to weather we are taught a hodge-podge of methods
I don't have your experience but I share your methodical approach
When it comes to weather, my current IMC instructor is a great source of experienced wisdom, to wit ...
If cloud cover at destination = broken @ circuit height, then chance of successful arrival < 50% = 'Do you think you're lucky??'
SD
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There are a couple of posts that concern me, very much. They relate to "questions" of when to decide whether to fly with children, young children, who have no real concept of how dangerous flying can be. Fly with children all day long. In fact I am considering whether to introduce my 14 year old to the world of flying but for the first few flights my professional executive jet PIC friend will be the handling pilot in CAVOK until my son feel safe & comfortable. My point is don't expect your young child to make the decision whether to take the car, train, bus, bike or whatever nor decide whether is the weather down the line is going to be ok. All they will do is look at you as the responsible adult and their idol to make the correct decision based on safety first. 90% of accidents start in the pilot's head. Rant over.
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I'm not sure that a Cirrus is necessarily a panacea. It might drop you into an electrical sub-station with spectaular results.
And is also not available to most PPL anyway.
When I did my night rating, I asked my instructor what I should o if the enine topped. 'Aim for the dark bits', said he.
That a PPL night rating exists at all suggests that the CAA finds the risk acceptable. And so do I.
With the benefit of a landing light, it is probable, though not guaranteed, that I could land reasonably safely.
I'm not sure about some of this thread-if we are blanket-bothered about what MIGHT happen, having planned as best as we are able, we maybe shouldn't have taken up flying in the first place.
And is also not available to most PPL anyway.
When I did my night rating, I asked my instructor what I should o if the enine topped. 'Aim for the dark bits', said he.
That a PPL night rating exists at all suggests that the CAA finds the risk acceptable. And so do I.
With the benefit of a landing light, it is probable, though not guaranteed, that I could land reasonably safely.
I'm not sure about some of this thread-if we are blanket-bothered about what MIGHT happen, having planned as best as we are able, we maybe shouldn't have taken up flying in the first place.
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quality flying helmets
Capt Bugsmasher
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With the benefit of a landing light, it is probable, though not guaranteed, that I could land reasonably safely.
I would say it would make virtually no difference to your chance of survival and to think it would is extreme optimism, however that is irrelevant to this thread.
Most of us have made the mistake of taking of in inappropriate weather and generally learn to tell the tale and grow in our experience, sadly sometimes innocent victims were with them who were not in a position to make an informed decision about the risks.
I would say it would make virtually no difference to your chance of survival and to think it would is extreme optimism, however that is irrelevant to this thread.
Most of us have made the mistake of taking of in inappropriate weather and generally learn to tell the tale and grow in our experience, sadly sometimes innocent victims were with them who were not in a position to make an informed decision about the risks.
