What's it like to fly where you are?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's it like to fly where you are?
Carrying on from the interesting discussion which emerged on the Avgas price thread, many of us fly in different environments. Each have their own pluses and minuses. Where some pilots might feel "taken care of" by a system, others might prefer a less regimented environment, and the "do your own thing" which can result. What's it like for you where you fly?
For me,
I keep both my planes at home on property I bought in 1989. I come and go as I please, day and night. That's nice in the freedom sense, though unless I tell someone I'm flying, if I get in trouble, I'm on my own. Since getting married 16 years ago, there is someone who takes an interest in where I am, and will turn on the runway lights for me (yes, it's my wife!). But, if the grass is long, it's my 2 hours job to cut it, and a snowfall can mean 4 hours on the tractor blowing the snow, so "free" yes, but at a cost of devotion to the runway. I keep auto fuel here for one plane, and some Avgas for the other, and I have built a hangar, though it will only hold one of the planes.
The nearest controlled airspace is at Toronto, 50 miles south, so I can fly great distances without talking to anyone. Indeed, one of my planes had no comm for years, I really did not need it. With a bit of creative routing, I have flown a 1500 mile trip across southern Canada, without talking to anyone (some planes I have ferried had no comm either).
ATC, when you talk to them are generally very helpful, but never "in your face". SEP GA IFR is not so common around here, unless conditions require. VFR is easy. Nearly no airports I would visit have manned communications, just unicom between pilots, if they have radios at all. Landing fees are uncommon, other than at large or busy airports. An expensive landing fee for my 150, would be $30. If I flew into Toronto YYZ, it'd be $200, 'cause they just don't want GA there anymore. There are dozens of private grass runways, and flying from one to the next to drop in and say Hi is fairly common. The odd one has an X, so we stay out of those. I have certainly had people drop in here, just for the exercise, and say Hi, and a few who have been trapped by impending weather enroute.
I have five lakes within ten minutes flight to land into with my amphibian, and literally thousands beyond that. Indeed, one friend has dug a 2000' pond beside his runway, for his floatplane. There are a few of those. There are a few lakes marked "do not land" on the charts, so we respect that.
But, with that freedom, comes the very great burden of knowing that if you have trouble in some remote place, you have big trouble, 'cause there is little or no help around. You can be stranded at a remote grass runway, just 'cause no one is around, but even more so, at a lake with no road in. I have certainly flown help in to others, and have flown in to cut up and remove a wrecked plane, and fly it out in pieces. Or, you hire a helicopter at $3000 per hour to try to sling your plane out. A $20,000 bill for that service is not unknown, if the plane had to be taken apart, and taken out in pieces. So careful where you go, and how you prepare. Having a bunch of mates with planes is great, if your cell phone will work to cal them to come and help you!
I have been lucky enough to fly every Canadian province and continental US state, a few European countries, and Africa too. Norway was my favourite European, though they do have restrictions on where you can land, which seem out of place for such an open country.
Where do you fly, and what's it like there?
For me,
I keep both my planes at home on property I bought in 1989. I come and go as I please, day and night. That's nice in the freedom sense, though unless I tell someone I'm flying, if I get in trouble, I'm on my own. Since getting married 16 years ago, there is someone who takes an interest in where I am, and will turn on the runway lights for me (yes, it's my wife!). But, if the grass is long, it's my 2 hours job to cut it, and a snowfall can mean 4 hours on the tractor blowing the snow, so "free" yes, but at a cost of devotion to the runway. I keep auto fuel here for one plane, and some Avgas for the other, and I have built a hangar, though it will only hold one of the planes.
The nearest controlled airspace is at Toronto, 50 miles south, so I can fly great distances without talking to anyone. Indeed, one of my planes had no comm for years, I really did not need it. With a bit of creative routing, I have flown a 1500 mile trip across southern Canada, without talking to anyone (some planes I have ferried had no comm either).
ATC, when you talk to them are generally very helpful, but never "in your face". SEP GA IFR is not so common around here, unless conditions require. VFR is easy. Nearly no airports I would visit have manned communications, just unicom between pilots, if they have radios at all. Landing fees are uncommon, other than at large or busy airports. An expensive landing fee for my 150, would be $30. If I flew into Toronto YYZ, it'd be $200, 'cause they just don't want GA there anymore. There are dozens of private grass runways, and flying from one to the next to drop in and say Hi is fairly common. The odd one has an X, so we stay out of those. I have certainly had people drop in here, just for the exercise, and say Hi, and a few who have been trapped by impending weather enroute.
I have five lakes within ten minutes flight to land into with my amphibian, and literally thousands beyond that. Indeed, one friend has dug a 2000' pond beside his runway, for his floatplane. There are a few of those. There are a few lakes marked "do not land" on the charts, so we respect that.
But, with that freedom, comes the very great burden of knowing that if you have trouble in some remote place, you have big trouble, 'cause there is little or no help around. You can be stranded at a remote grass runway, just 'cause no one is around, but even more so, at a lake with no road in. I have certainly flown help in to others, and have flown in to cut up and remove a wrecked plane, and fly it out in pieces. Or, you hire a helicopter at $3000 per hour to try to sling your plane out. A $20,000 bill for that service is not unknown, if the plane had to be taken apart, and taken out in pieces. So careful where you go, and how you prepare. Having a bunch of mates with planes is great, if your cell phone will work to cal them to come and help you!
I have been lucky enough to fly every Canadian province and continental US state, a few European countries, and Africa too. Norway was my favourite European, though they do have restrictions on where you can land, which seem out of place for such an open country.
Where do you fly, and what's it like there?
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I'm smack bang in the middle of that controlled airspace to the south of you.
Just got my ppl.
Stuck with renting planes with a very limited choice as I don't drive. That works out to be very expensive.
Looking for places to go and people to see.
Not a Canadian native so nervous about winter conditions at unfamiliar airports.
At the moment just keeping my currency ticking over with my local rental joint. Hoping to try some more ambitious stuff when the weather gets warmer.
Would love to get some experience flying something other than a 172.
Maybe a birthday treat next year !!!
Still love ever y moment in the sky.
Just got my ppl.
Stuck with renting planes with a very limited choice as I don't drive. That works out to be very expensive.
Looking for places to go and people to see.
Not a Canadian native so nervous about winter conditions at unfamiliar airports.
At the moment just keeping my currency ticking over with my local rental joint. Hoping to try some more ambitious stuff when the weather gets warmer.
Would love to get some experience flying something other than a 172.
Maybe a birthday treat next year !!!
Still love ever y moment in the sky.
North and West Wales, mostly.
It's very refreshing after South-East England. A modicum of caution to make sure you're not going to cross-paths with the fast jets, and you can pretty much bimble wherever you want. Some glorious scenery and you can try giving calls on the radio, but oftentimes nobody will be able to hear them.
Very few places to force-land should it be required, though mostly you're not so isolated that you couldn't walk to help within an hour or so. I endeavour to keep forced-landing areas in mind, my thoughts being that I'd be surprised if you could use the plane again after but that I'd hope to have a reasonable chance of surviving.
It's very refreshing after South-East England. A modicum of caution to make sure you're not going to cross-paths with the fast jets, and you can pretty much bimble wherever you want. Some glorious scenery and you can try giving calls on the radio, but oftentimes nobody will be able to hear them.
Very few places to force-land should it be required, though mostly you're not so isolated that you couldn't walk to help within an hour or so. I endeavour to keep forced-landing areas in mind, my thoughts being that I'd be surprised if you could use the plane again after but that I'd hope to have a reasonable chance of surviving.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civvy club on military airbase in SE England. Highly regulated to within an inch of our lives, and a major PITA for that reason at times, but a great privilege to have a first rate airfield with instrument facilities and ATC available effectively free. Certainly helps with the British weather.
SE England itself - busy and congested airspace, way too many Class A no-go areas especially the London TMA. Loads of places to go to (but landing fees a bit pricey); mostly plenty of forced landing areas, too, golf courses everywhere.
SE England itself - busy and congested airspace, way too many Class A no-go areas especially the London TMA. Loads of places to go to (but landing fees a bit pricey); mostly plenty of forced landing areas, too, golf courses everywhere.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now flying Africa with much fun and little real regulations.
Hot&High is my daily threat, runways are mostly dirt strips, people are mostly extraordinary friendly (apart from buttheads, but that's no difference to Europe). Avgas can be more expensive then gold and you learn quickly that the old Continentals take astonishing bad fuel from the car tap without whining - they even run on banana instead of aero oil in case of emergency. It is a relief to be away from the clinical airborne operations back to just flying the machine.
Hot&High is my daily threat, runways are mostly dirt strips, people are mostly extraordinary friendly (apart from buttheads, but that's no difference to Europe). Avgas can be more expensive then gold and you learn quickly that the old Continentals take astonishing bad fuel from the car tap without whining - they even run on banana instead of aero oil in case of emergency. It is a relief to be away from the clinical airborne operations back to just flying the machine.
Similar to Step but east of Yeovilton / North of Compton Abbas in Dorset UK. Same devotion to runway but main problem in winter is mud rather than snow. I come and go as I please with a similar system for turning on the lights.
Yellow jackets are NOT permitted.
Yellow jackets are NOT permitted.
Last edited by Romeo Tango; 22nd Dec 2014 at 16:40.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly all over the US, but mainly the west coast. I learned to fly in Europe and have flown in both Sweden and the UK. Sweden is pretty free, since it flies under the radar there. It's too small for the bureaucrats and they haven't gotten wind yet. UK a bit more restrictive, but there's a lot of GA history there. I like that both UK and Sweden have a lot of grass fields and pilots who are experienced in that. In the US it's all tarmac and they get really worried when you say you want to land on grass. It's like if you asked them to land on a carrier in a storm. But other than that flying in the US is fantastic. Europe should take note on how it's done.
I just stepped up to an even more capable plane, so the plan is to take the plane to Europe next year and do a little summer vacation and visit my old stomping grounds. I really look forward to that.
I just stepped up to an even more capable plane, so the plan is to take the plane to Europe next year and do a little summer vacation and visit my old stomping grounds. I really look forward to that.
In a densely populated country with complex airspace, I fly a 450 kg microlight, disallowed in controlled airspace. Monday to Friday my options are very limited, but in the weekends much more is possible. And it is nice to have other countries very near - even at 75 kts TAS, I have France, Germany and Luxembourg and the Netherlands within two hour's flying, at most. The nice thing is the "French style" ultralight fields in Southern Belgium, less nice is I can never fly legally above 4500 AMSL - and neither have I, as yet. Will have to take a trip into France for that.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Unna, Germany
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm fortunate that I mainly fly both in Germany and UK - have also flown further afield across Europe but these two countries really highlight the difference between GA possibilities.
I like the fact that, in Germany, I can take off, contact FIS and 99.999% of the time receive a traffic service, can fly from one end of Germany to the other with a minimum of frequency changes whereas in UK, it's all about finding a LARS unit which is manned and even if it is, the chances are you'll be fobbed off with a Basic Service - which is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Not only that, there are huge differences in consistency - I flew over Wales on Saturday, passing through Bristol and Cardiff LARS, speaking with both I was refused traffic service due to controller workload (although there were around 3 aircraft on their frequencies).
That in itself is ok, but this is where the inconsistency was highlighted - I was fortunate that I saw a DA40 in the Bristol area, was maybe 100 feet higher, 1 mile away when I saw it - no warning from Bristol (well, basic service - what do you expect) yet when talking with Cardiff, they were updating me about an SR 20 descending through clouds to 2800 feet (I was at 2300 feet). Anyone used to receiving traffic information on a Basic service would be shocked to find no warning received from another LARS unit. In my mind, Cardiff should offer proper a full traffic service, not traffic warnings on a basic service, or Bristol should also offer the same. For two adjacent LARS units to offer differing service levels under the same (announced) Service is unacceptable.
I also have to question the value of contacting (e.g.) Bristol LARS if all they are going to do is offer no service at all, in fact I'm pretty sure people make it a point of flying beneath their controlled airspace and don't bother listening to them - what's the point? This actually makes the controller's job harder because he has no idea of their intentions..... and all because the controller, who is looking after a smaller area than Langen, Bremen or Munich Information do, can't be bothered to offer a service.
If things are going to be standardised, I'd hope that the UK had two or three radar based FIS, rather than multiple LARS units which are either too busy (really?), not manned at the weekend (military units) or which leaves huge holes in the coverage. I do look out for traffic but having Radar based controllers looking after you makes flying in Germany so much more enjoyable.
The facilities in UK and Germany are pretty much similar, landing fees in Germany are lower and with the Landegutscheinheft, sometimes free. Having said that, I dislike the fact that the German AIPs need to be paid for - although the AIPs do include a recommended circuit around the airfield - the number of times I have flown to UK and seen GA flying Bomber circuits is just ridiculous.
So if it were down to me, I would take the best of those two countries - the FIS of Germany, the free AIPs in UK and the published circuits from Germany - and I'd pretty much have my perfect location.....
I like the fact that, in Germany, I can take off, contact FIS and 99.999% of the time receive a traffic service, can fly from one end of Germany to the other with a minimum of frequency changes whereas in UK, it's all about finding a LARS unit which is manned and even if it is, the chances are you'll be fobbed off with a Basic Service - which is as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Not only that, there are huge differences in consistency - I flew over Wales on Saturday, passing through Bristol and Cardiff LARS, speaking with both I was refused traffic service due to controller workload (although there were around 3 aircraft on their frequencies).
That in itself is ok, but this is where the inconsistency was highlighted - I was fortunate that I saw a DA40 in the Bristol area, was maybe 100 feet higher, 1 mile away when I saw it - no warning from Bristol (well, basic service - what do you expect) yet when talking with Cardiff, they were updating me about an SR 20 descending through clouds to 2800 feet (I was at 2300 feet). Anyone used to receiving traffic information on a Basic service would be shocked to find no warning received from another LARS unit. In my mind, Cardiff should offer proper a full traffic service, not traffic warnings on a basic service, or Bristol should also offer the same. For two adjacent LARS units to offer differing service levels under the same (announced) Service is unacceptable.
I also have to question the value of contacting (e.g.) Bristol LARS if all they are going to do is offer no service at all, in fact I'm pretty sure people make it a point of flying beneath their controlled airspace and don't bother listening to them - what's the point? This actually makes the controller's job harder because he has no idea of their intentions..... and all because the controller, who is looking after a smaller area than Langen, Bremen or Munich Information do, can't be bothered to offer a service.
If things are going to be standardised, I'd hope that the UK had two or three radar based FIS, rather than multiple LARS units which are either too busy (really?), not manned at the weekend (military units) or which leaves huge holes in the coverage. I do look out for traffic but having Radar based controllers looking after you makes flying in Germany so much more enjoyable.
The facilities in UK and Germany are pretty much similar, landing fees in Germany are lower and with the Landegutscheinheft, sometimes free. Having said that, I dislike the fact that the German AIPs need to be paid for - although the AIPs do include a recommended circuit around the airfield - the number of times I have flown to UK and seen GA flying Bomber circuits is just ridiculous.
So if it were down to me, I would take the best of those two countries - the FIS of Germany, the free AIPs in UK and the published circuits from Germany - and I'd pretty much have my perfect location.....
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Based on a farm strip next to my house in Angus in northeast Scotland, fly about 125 hours a year in a Maule STOL with tundra tyres mostly throughout Scotland, England and Wales, landing on beaches, pastures and any field or track that's reasonably flat and straight. I do France and Spain a few times a year. The real bonus about this area is the huge variance in terrain and sights to see in nearby range with very little traffic and wide open uncontrolled airspace. From the beaches at Lunan Bay, round the beautiful harbor towns of fife, the lochs and foothills of Perth and the Cairngorm mountains make it a great place to fly. Efficient flight control services that know the local area well give that extra measure of safety.
It's all good, we are lucky to live and fly in a place like this.
It's all good, we are lucky to live and fly in a place like this.
@Steve: I share your annoyance with the German VFR AIP having to be paid for - I can only hope EASA (or perhaps even a European court) will forbid them. I have enough of the French "esprit" to expect official and legally binding information to be freely available to all citizens.
And indeed I think Germany is the only European country to display such an aberration.
And indeed I think Germany is the only European country to display such an aberration.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, Heffalump, these guys don't understand you! They prefer smooth air, smooth runways, enroute traffic alerts, etc etc.
And yet, and yet! The UK is a wonderful place for gliding! Much better than the US. Because of the club ethos, it is low in cost, and we help each other out. As far as emergency landing fields, there are very few places you can't find a decent farmer's field, and even a decent farmer, if you apologise and offer a voucher for a flight in return for his kindness.
And amazingly, there is very good lift, thermals - everywhere on a good day; ridges - spectacular in Wales, the Long Mynd, Camp Hill, and in Scotland, wave to 30,000 and much higher than that!
I would like to try gliding in Germany some day, but don't know how to make contacts....anyone here able to help?
And yet, and yet! The UK is a wonderful place for gliding! Much better than the US. Because of the club ethos, it is low in cost, and we help each other out. As far as emergency landing fields, there are very few places you can't find a decent farmer's field, and even a decent farmer, if you apologise and offer a voucher for a flight in return for his kindness.
And amazingly, there is very good lift, thermals - everywhere on a good day; ridges - spectacular in Wales, the Long Mynd, Camp Hill, and in Scotland, wave to 30,000 and much higher than that!
I would like to try gliding in Germany some day, but don't know how to make contacts....anyone here able to help?
Denmark here - lots of grass strips on wonderful small islands with nice beaches, camping sites and inns. Tent, sleeping bag and beach-equipment into the baggage hold and off you go with the family ! My favourites are the islands of Femų and Samsų. Have also flowin in the US, Iceland, Sweden and Germany.
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: with bosun Blue Sky and the jenny haniver "Hot Stuff"
Posts: 106
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
landing on beaches, pastures and any field or track that's reasonably flat and straight
Do you write for the landowner's permission or just fall under right to roam or what?
I didn't think this kind of flying existed any more in the UK!
R
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm in S.E. Alaska. No road in of out. Only way to get here is plane or boat. S.E AK is very mountainous, thick forests, lots of glaciers, channels and cannels. A very scenic place to fly. It lies in the middle of an intercostal marine water way. Tides are +20feet above sea level to -4 below sea level. Shore lines or beaches are very rocky, with boulders, there are places to land a cub with tundra tires. With the very high tides you need to plan according to the tide table for most beaches are under water at high tide. Ditching is beach or channel, so you learn quickly the best routes based on number of places to land. Mostly uncontrolled airspace. Canada is just a jump over the ice fields. It's also one of the few places this far north that is considered a rain forest, so weather is very rainy, foggy, very warm in the winter by Alaska standards. Clear days are few and far between. Lots of float planes, super cubs w tundra tires and such. Most towns or villages have an uncontrolled air strip or float plane dock or both. Love flying here always wishing for better weather. 
Last edited by B19; 24th Dec 2014 at 02:13.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't think this kind of flying existed any more in the UK!
Edit to add; most landowners in remote areas are usually more gob smacked that an aircraft could or would land in a field more than they are humped off about an brief unannounced visit.
S.E. UK, 600 yds grass strip in use over 25 years, close to one corner of London Airport Gatwick's small CTR. Even so they accept our non-radio operation and are excellent neighbours to have & we take care not to infringe it or annoy local residents, who appear to like our presence.
Like the other man said, so the UK called 'Basic Service' is a poor joke & it becomes less accessible the busier the traffic gets. Radio monitoring for light GA use is spasmodic, unless you're desperate to only exchange reg. details & get QNH it is demonstrably unreliable if expecting any warning of other traffic. [The better RT crew of them for radar warnings lies in its 'East' sector].
Our main problem however is not lack of plenty of flat to land if the engine plays up nor finding help with habitation close by, or mobile 'phone coverage, but significant threats via applications to our CAA to secure large areas of airspace to themselves by greedy lesser airfield operators.
Norwich has already blighted more area than Gatwick has for practically no traffic. Southend recently got a vast increase making east of London transits narrow by obtaining compulsory radio, and are pressing for total control.
Farnborough has delusions of grandeur & the areas and levels they seek to control will reduce the opportunity for safe GA flight around London & the south east of England.
Lastly 'EASA' where European non-flying beaurocrats, despite a valiant rearguard action from our own CAA, command that all new radios installed must be 8 K/cs spacing. Even worse, our safe for 100 years VFR light operation "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface" is about to be lost.
That along with airspace theft indicates few flights can easily remain legal.
mike hallam.
Like the other man said, so the UK called 'Basic Service' is a poor joke & it becomes less accessible the busier the traffic gets. Radio monitoring for light GA use is spasmodic, unless you're desperate to only exchange reg. details & get QNH it is demonstrably unreliable if expecting any warning of other traffic. [The better RT crew of them for radar warnings lies in its 'East' sector].
Our main problem however is not lack of plenty of flat to land if the engine plays up nor finding help with habitation close by, or mobile 'phone coverage, but significant threats via applications to our CAA to secure large areas of airspace to themselves by greedy lesser airfield operators.
Norwich has already blighted more area than Gatwick has for practically no traffic. Southend recently got a vast increase making east of London transits narrow by obtaining compulsory radio, and are pressing for total control.
Farnborough has delusions of grandeur & the areas and levels they seek to control will reduce the opportunity for safe GA flight around London & the south east of England.
Lastly 'EASA' where European non-flying beaurocrats, despite a valiant rearguard action from our own CAA, command that all new radios installed must be 8 K/cs spacing. Even worse, our safe for 100 years VFR light operation "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface" is about to be lost.
That along with airspace theft indicates few flights can easily remain legal.
mike hallam.
Last edited by mikehallam; 23rd Dec 2014 at 18:14. Reason: poor English