Is it worth gaining an IMC?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Surrey
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it worth gaining an IMC?
Having had my PPL for a year I am about to proceed with an IMC rating. An interesting new learning experience and hopefully of some use when VFR isn't as VFR as you'd like it.
But I've just read a CAA handout about cutting VORs from 46 to 19. The 19 survivors will be - Aberdeen (ADN) Belfast (BEL) Berry Head (BHD) Clacton (CLN) Compton (CPT) Honiley (HON) Isle of Man (IOM) Land’s End (LND) Ottringham (OTR) Pole Hill (POL) Saint Abbs (SAB) Seaford (SFD) Stornoway (STN) Strumble (STU) Sumburgh (SUM) Talla (TLA) Tiree (TIR) Wallasey (WAL) Wick (WIK)
Not OCK, MID, BIG or GWC B in the area I'm likely to need them.
Is it indeed safe to fly IMC if there are not enough VORs to navigate by.
Even if you fly DME radials shouldn't you still have a back up?
I understand that there's more to an IMC rating than nav by VOR but how practical will it's use be.
Cheers
John
But I've just read a CAA handout about cutting VORs from 46 to 19. The 19 survivors will be - Aberdeen (ADN) Belfast (BEL) Berry Head (BHD) Clacton (CLN) Compton (CPT) Honiley (HON) Isle of Man (IOM) Land’s End (LND) Ottringham (OTR) Pole Hill (POL) Saint Abbs (SAB) Seaford (SFD) Stornoway (STN) Strumble (STU) Sumburgh (SUM) Talla (TLA) Tiree (TIR) Wallasey (WAL) Wick (WIK)
Not OCK, MID, BIG or GWC B in the area I'm likely to need them.
Is it indeed safe to fly IMC if there are not enough VORs to navigate by.
Even if you fly DME radials shouldn't you still have a back up?
I understand that there's more to an IMC rating than nav by VOR but how practical will it's use be.
Cheers
John
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do it !
I think you have already aswered your own question, the IMC is about much more than tracking a few VOR's
I would hope that your instructor would bring in the use of GPS for IMC navigation and approaches if only to back up use of VOR & ADF.
With the changeable weather in the UK the IMC gives you the option of climbing above the MSA if the visibility makes continuing VFR impractical.
In short the IMC rating makes you a much safer pilot, I recommend it for any PPL holder who intends to go places.
I would hope that your instructor would bring in the use of GPS for IMC navigation and approaches if only to back up use of VOR & ADF.
With the changeable weather in the UK the IMC gives you the option of climbing above the MSA if the visibility makes continuing VFR impractical.
In short the IMC rating makes you a much safer pilot, I recommend it for any PPL holder who intends to go places.
Yes it is.
Cross-country nav is a juggling game of GPS, VOR, DME, ADF. then when nearer to airfields radar and ILS. Plus to a large extent you still use DR en-route in IMC.
The reduction in the number of VORs is a mild nuisance but no more than that. The reality is that most people now will use GPS en-route anyhow, but sensible pilots back it up with periodic cross-checks on other navaids.
I use my IMCR / IR(R) regularly and my only regret is taking so long to get around to doing it - I flew on long trips in marginal VFR for 10 year with a lot of weather diversions. I'm now studying to upgrade to the full IR so that I can use the ability outside of the UK, because it's been so useful within the UK.
G
Cross-country nav is a juggling game of GPS, VOR, DME, ADF. then when nearer to airfields radar and ILS. Plus to a large extent you still use DR en-route in IMC.
The reduction in the number of VORs is a mild nuisance but no more than that. The reality is that most people now will use GPS en-route anyhow, but sensible pilots back it up with periodic cross-checks on other navaids.
I use my IMCR / IR(R) regularly and my only regret is taking so long to get around to doing it - I flew on long trips in marginal VFR for 10 year with a lot of weather diversions. I'm now studying to upgrade to the full IR so that I can use the ability outside of the UK, because it's been so useful within the UK.
G
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
Age: 60
Posts: 1,975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I completed my IFR rating earlier this year, the main take away for me was not learning area navigation or even how to fly approaches, but how to conduct a flight in an orderly and disciplined manner including routine "housekeeping" steps in the cockpit like paperwork management, task flows & timing, logical steps appropriate to the phase of flight,the mental discipline of instrument scan and interpretation, and flying to tighter tolerances.
Haven't done much real world IFR but the training makes VFR much more rewarding.
Commence slings and arrows,,, NOW
Haven't done much real world IFR but the training makes VFR much more rewarding.
Commence slings and arrows,,, NOW
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO a one word answer is needed - Yes.
Did mine about 9 months after PPL and aside from the instrument bit it improved my overall flying so much it was untrue. I was around 100 hours at start of training and struggling with maintaining altitude with any degree of accuracy. IMC training flogged that discipline into me as well as massively professionalising my R/T skills.
As to the instrument flying, the VOR part is only a small part of what is taught. You're learning the ability to fly the plane using only the instruments without visual references, flying on instruments only with some of the instruments malfunctioning, not to mention the ability to let down through cloud and the approaches.
I also find it helpful flying IFR in VMC when doing X country flights. It seems (this may just be an impression though) that when asking for Class D airspace clearance under IFR it is more likely to be given than VFR.
The other thing it has done for me is to open the sky on days when it might have been marginal as to VMC.
Do it, you never know when the skills might save your life.
Did mine about 9 months after PPL and aside from the instrument bit it improved my overall flying so much it was untrue. I was around 100 hours at start of training and struggling with maintaining altitude with any degree of accuracy. IMC training flogged that discipline into me as well as massively professionalising my R/T skills.
As to the instrument flying, the VOR part is only a small part of what is taught. You're learning the ability to fly the plane using only the instruments without visual references, flying on instruments only with some of the instruments malfunctioning, not to mention the ability to let down through cloud and the approaches.
I also find it helpful flying IFR in VMC when doing X country flights. It seems (this may just be an impression though) that when asking for Class D airspace clearance under IFR it is more likely to be given than VFR.
The other thing it has done for me is to open the sky on days when it might have been marginal as to VMC.
Do it, you never know when the skills might save your life.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For practical IFR flying no-one uses anything other than GPS and DME though the ability to track a VOR is very useful in learning some of the skills needed to fly an ILS.
So go and get your IMCR it'll be some of the most enjoyable flying you ever do and one day it will save your bacon. Before I had a full IR I was caught out by unexpected bad weather in Germany and was able to to divert and fly an approach to land without drama. No-one asked me whether the skills were legal in Germany and if they had my response would have been to make a Mayday call!
So go and get your IMCR it'll be some of the most enjoyable flying you ever do and one day it will save your bacon. Before I had a full IR I was caught out by unexpected bad weather in Germany and was able to to divert and fly an approach to land without drama. No-one asked me whether the skills were legal in Germany and if they had my response would have been to make a Mayday call!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Plus to a large extent you still use DR en-route in IMC.
So, I was explaining my planned route to the instructor, and was worried that for five miles or so I was outside the DOC of the VORs I was using (I'd actually looked them up in the AIP). But on the other hand I wasn't very worried, because I was sure that one or other of them would cover the gap, so it was really just a worry about whether this route would be acceptable on a test.
"Sure," was the answer, "you just DR from a fix on one navaid until you pick up the next one, there's no danger of accidentally running into controlled airspace round there."
In real life you can just tell the GPS to go "direct to" some VOR well outside the distance you can receive it - you'll pick it up when you get nearer. For which you don't even need a fancy coloured moving map type GPS.
I usually plan and fly GPS, and I usually remember to tune in the VORs DMEs, NDBs as a check or in case both GPSs fail. (A radio that's not tuned into something potentially useful is useless dead weight that you're paying to carry around.)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi JSAG, I don't think you are wanting to progress into commercial flying, so why would you want to fly in IMC conditions. The thought of spending costly time bashing through clouds at 120 kts doesn't appeal to me at all. Especially as someone might be doing the same thing, but in the opposite direction.
I prefer to fly only in Gin Clear skies where my passengers can get a good few photos as a reminder of their flight. As you can guess theses type of days are a rarity for Cross Country flights. I find the UKGA weather map to be a good indication that you can get more than just a local flight....
UKGA home
However I did get caught out once by an advancing squall line which was traveling in the opposite direction to which I thought, but I have sufficient Instrument Hours to be able to do a quick 180, for a VFR RTB.
So maybe some IMC training is desirable.
I prefer to fly only in Gin Clear skies where my passengers can get a good few photos as a reminder of their flight. As you can guess theses type of days are a rarity for Cross Country flights. I find the UKGA weather map to be a good indication that you can get more than just a local flight....
UKGA home
However I did get caught out once by an advancing squall line which was traveling in the opposite direction to which I thought, but I have sufficient Instrument Hours to be able to do a quick 180, for a VFR RTB.
So maybe some IMC training is desirable.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I live in the Netherlands but I specifically took a vacation in the UK to do my IMC. Even though I can't legally use it in NL, and even though it's probably going to be a challenge to revalidate it as well. (I still have a few months to sort that out though.)
I mostly did it to enhance my flying skills, and to have a "way out" in case of deteriorating weather. I'd rather fly illegally and live, than legally become a CFIT or LOC-in-IMC statistic. And it was great fun to do anyway.
I mostly did it to enhance my flying skills, and to have a "way out" in case of deteriorating weather. I'd rather fly illegally and live, than legally become a CFIT or LOC-in-IMC statistic. And it was great fun to do anyway.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Witnesham, Suffolk
Age: 80
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you NEED one? Probably not, if you only plan to fly in gin-clear VMC and can guarantee there will be no sneaky clouds to creep up on you.
Should you do one? Almost certainly YES. It will hone your flying skills to a much sharper level (don't start the IMC till you have enough post-PPL hours to have got comfortable with handling the aeroplane). It may well save your bacon one day when that sneaky cloud catches you.
Many times I've been told "I don't want to fly in cloud: there's nothing to see and the passengers don't enjoy it." Only partly true. I've taken off into a 1000 foot cloudbase many times, flown for 20 minutes or so into bright sunshine, and had a delightful few days away from home with family and aeroplane. We've then returned into 20 minutes of IMC to land back at wet, soggy home.
Yes, there is a risk of banging into another aeroplane in the cloud. However, there hasn't been a collision between two aircraft in IMC outside controlled airspace in the UK since 1943. There are many more serious risks that any aviator undertakes, even in CAVOK. Also, flying in IMC there tends to be less traffic around, you fly above MSA/SSA, and there is almost always an ATC unit who will give you a service.
I find that most objections to the IMCR are from people who failed it, from retired Air Vice Marshals who think it's a "get out of trouble only" rating, or from commercial airlines who resent PPLs intruding into their sky.
In reality, if you use it much you may choose to go on and do the new course to convert to a full IR. I went down the FAA IR route before that option became available, and found that the IMCR plus about 100 hours of "sole reference to instruments" flight using it was a good preparation for the IR.
Should you do one? Almost certainly YES. It will hone your flying skills to a much sharper level (don't start the IMC till you have enough post-PPL hours to have got comfortable with handling the aeroplane). It may well save your bacon one day when that sneaky cloud catches you.
Many times I've been told "I don't want to fly in cloud: there's nothing to see and the passengers don't enjoy it." Only partly true. I've taken off into a 1000 foot cloudbase many times, flown for 20 minutes or so into bright sunshine, and had a delightful few days away from home with family and aeroplane. We've then returned into 20 minutes of IMC to land back at wet, soggy home.
Yes, there is a risk of banging into another aeroplane in the cloud. However, there hasn't been a collision between two aircraft in IMC outside controlled airspace in the UK since 1943. There are many more serious risks that any aviator undertakes, even in CAVOK. Also, flying in IMC there tends to be less traffic around, you fly above MSA/SSA, and there is almost always an ATC unit who will give you a service.
I find that most objections to the IMCR are from people who failed it, from retired Air Vice Marshals who think it's a "get out of trouble only" rating, or from commercial airlines who resent PPLs intruding into their sky.
In reality, if you use it much you may choose to go on and do the new course to convert to a full IR. I went down the FAA IR route before that option became available, and found that the IMCR plus about 100 hours of "sole reference to instruments" flight using it was a good preparation for the IR.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In answer to the original question: Yes, ithe IMC / IR(R) s worth doing (for all the reasons previously mentioned).
My concern with losing all these VORs is the PPL Holder.
'VFR On Top' (ie out of sight of the surface) is allowed and it now means GPS is probably the ONLY way of navigating. Redundancy now means have two, or more, GPS on board or, possibly, many more Pan Calls for pilots who are lost.
PPL students are required to be able to intercept and track a Radial, either to or from a Nav Aid; and to be able to use Nav aids to position fix. GPS is not allowed for this so, with many VORs and NDBs disappearing, how are they supposed to gain their Licence?
My concern with losing all these VORs is the PPL Holder.
'VFR On Top' (ie out of sight of the surface) is allowed and it now means GPS is probably the ONLY way of navigating. Redundancy now means have two, or more, GPS on board or, possibly, many more Pan Calls for pilots who are lost.
PPL students are required to be able to intercept and track a Radial, either to or from a Nav Aid; and to be able to use Nav aids to position fix. GPS is not allowed for this so, with many VORs and NDBs disappearing, how are they supposed to gain their Licence?
Last edited by Level Attitude; 16th Dec 2014 at 21:54.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Level attitude
Looking at the number of VOR's that have been retained I don't think that any place in the UK will be out of range of less than two of them if you are above the MSA.
Why would GPS result in people getting lost ? In terms of reliability is the ADF better ? ......... I think not !
And finaly why should a navigation equipment failure automatically result in a PAN call ? Simply telling an ATC unit that you have a system failure will result in assistance that will avoid an emergency situation not create one.
Why would GPS result in people getting lost ? In terms of reliability is the ADF better ? ......... I think not !
And finaly why should a navigation equipment failure automatically result in a PAN call ? Simply telling an ATC unit that you have a system failure will result in assistance that will avoid an emergency situation not create one.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wales
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I first started my PPL training, I was half expecting the Navigation to involve Chart Tables, Sextants, Rulers, Compasses and Protractors, also a good knowledge of trigonometry.... I felt very disappointed when I was told that a modern GA aircraft did not have much room to enable such Astral Navigation with large Charts...
So with these VORs being reduced in numbers, and the lack of ADF beacons, will we be able to open a Chart sufficiently wide enough for us to plot our position using two or three VORs by triangulation, I suspect not.
So with these VORs being reduced in numbers, and the lack of ADF beacons, will we be able to open a Chart sufficiently wide enough for us to plot our position using two or three VORs by triangulation, I suspect not.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes do it. Having any extra knowledge can only be a good thing. I'm probably a bit odd but I find flying on instruments quite relaxing. Also one of the best and big grin parts of aviation IMO is breaking through a miserable overcast and rain into a brilliant blue sky with a dazzling white carpet of cloud beneath you as far as the eye can see, with rarely any company because the big jets are way above you and most other folk are plodding through the murk beneath you.
But then we all get different things out of flying and I understand folk who aren't interested in that side of things.
But then we all get different things out of flying and I understand folk who aren't interested in that side of things.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the number of VOR's that have been retained I don't think that any place in the UK will be out of range of less than two of them if you are above the MSA.
Why would GPS result in people getting lost ? In terms of reliability is the ADF better ? ......... I think not !
And finaly why should a navigation equipment failure automatically result in a PAN call ?
This isn't a major problem if in sight of the surface but, I would suggest, 'VFR On Top' with no Nav Aids is a completely different scenario and certainly merits a Pan call - even if only 'temporarily uncertain of position'.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Also one of the best and big grin parts of aviation IMO is breaking through a miserable overcast and rain into a brilliant blue sky with a dazzling white carpet of cloud beneath you as far as the eye can see, with rarely any company because the big jets are way above you and most other folk are plodding through the murk beneath you.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed! Or letting down on an instrument approach and seeing the runway lights pop into view right on the nose; that's always satisfying.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Level Attitude
I would be negligent if I sent a student pilot on a solo cross country flight if he/she did not know the MSA for the leg being flown, any pilot should know the MSA for the location of the aircraft this situational awareness stops people flying into hills.
Flying VFR into deteriorating conditions is a killer and knowing the MSA is part of the decision process that tells a pilot when to do a 180 turn.
If dual GPS (GTN650/750 typicly) is good enough for flight in MNPS airspace (Oceanic Navigation) then a single GPS should be good enough for a bit of navigation around western Europe if you have VOR & ADF, but you will probably only use the ADF to get the cricket scores. However keeping a good Nav log will enable a good DR position to be kept if the Nav equipment fails.
Telling an ATC unit that you have had a total navigation radio failure as soon as it happends should not require a PAN call, you should know your position due to the DR position from the Nav log you are keeping and ATC should get you on Radar quickly, as long as you are above the MSA you are not in danger and an aircraft under radar vectors (without radio nav equipment) is not in a situation that requires any sort of emergency status.
A pilot who fails to keep a nav log and fails to know the en-route MSA however is an emergency flying somewere to happen !
Flying VFR into deteriorating conditions is a killer and knowing the MSA is part of the decision process that tells a pilot when to do a 180 turn.
If dual GPS (GTN650/750 typicly) is good enough for flight in MNPS airspace (Oceanic Navigation) then a single GPS should be good enough for a bit of navigation around western Europe if you have VOR & ADF, but you will probably only use the ADF to get the cricket scores. However keeping a good Nav log will enable a good DR position to be kept if the Nav equipment fails.
Telling an ATC unit that you have had a total navigation radio failure as soon as it happends should not require a PAN call, you should know your position due to the DR position from the Nav log you are keeping and ATC should get you on Radar quickly, as long as you are above the MSA you are not in danger and an aircraft under radar vectors (without radio nav equipment) is not in a situation that requires any sort of emergency status.
A pilot who fails to keep a nav log and fails to know the en-route MSA however is an emergency flying somewere to happen !